I've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.
Rugby league is the latest.
BBC News - Transgender players banned from international rugby league
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/61875651
Swimming did it too.
BBC News - Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450
And talk of athletics following.
A few thoughts here...
1: it's good to see some nuance. They're specifying top level international events rather than the absolute bans on trans people in sport the transphobes are calling out for.
2: it's good to see it coming from the sports governing bodies. They're the ones who have been dealing with this issue since long before anyone outside of sports pretended to care. It shouldn't be political. It should be a decision they make based on science and that's it.
3: hopefully... Some movement here might help neuter the transphobes and their turning this complete non issue into a major political wedge issue. It's insane how gender testing in sport has become such a hot topic.
4: on the negative however.... I am a bit unnerved that this is a specific ban on trans people. This doesn't seem the right way to go to me. It's not very scientific.
Ideally the way to go would be, even if it reaches the same end result, be to pass a rule about a factor that will exclude trans people without specifying so.
This kind of blanket ban doesn't do much to solve the actual problems when they emerge and only really serves to throw some meat out there. It does make the whole thing seem kind of suspectly political and not based on science as they claim - anti LGBT folks do love to hide behind bad science.
Thoughts?
I thought we had a thread on this.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2022, 04:59:59 PMI thought we had a thread on this.
We did awhile ago but I can't find it.
There's been actual news on the topic in recent days.
While I understand what you mean by science here, or at least I can think of a not unreasonable use, I think the idea that science can solve the question of trans athletes is about as correct as the idea that science can solve the question of abortion.
They are using science. And the science suggests that if you go through a male phase while in puberty, the long term effects on physiology at the highest levels are significant and measurable, even once testoserone levels return to non-male levels.
This is pretty new science, so I am sure there will be more studies, and as more information becomes available and vetted, hopefully a more nuanced policy can be created at the appropriate levels.
I am amused though that what is now seen as "driven by policy of the governing bodies" used to be called "Transphobe bigotry!"
Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PM1: it's good to see some nuance. They're specifying top level international events rather than the absolute bans on trans people in sport the transphobes are calling out for.
it should be a ban on all competitive sports. otherwise, girls sports becomes pretty meaningless. young girls get discouraged if they constantly lose and develop a sense of unfairness.
And you don't reach the top competitive sports by constantly being 3rd or 4rth in your sport.
as you admit yourself, it's based on science, not bigotry.
QuoteThey are using science. And the science suggests that if you go through a male phase while in puberty, the long term effects on physiology at the highest levels are significant and measurable, even once testoserone levels return to non-male levels.
Taking this straight for a moment... So term if that way.
This could just be the way the media is spinning it and the actual rules make no mention of trans people.
But there should be no rule specially singling out trans people; if you have a rule specifying the science about hormones and male puberty then that would be acceptable.
But again that's assuming the science holds up. The current scientific view last I checked found quite the opposite.
Maybe the two studies were looking at the effects in different areas- the whole thing with semenya being allowed in one event but not her main event as the impact of testosterone is less there.
QuoteI am amused though that what is now seen as "driven by policy of the governing bodies" used to be called "Transphobe bigotry!"
Don't fall into the trap of believing the bigots favourite strawman that this must be all or nothing; and if you believe that a top male pro can't just decide one day they're a woman then the left will call you a bigot.
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2022, 06:57:58 PMit should be a ban on all competitive sports. otherwise, girls sports becomes pretty meaningless. young girls get discouraged if they constantly lose and develop a sense of unfairness.
And you don't reach the top competitive sports by constantly being 3rd or 4rth in your sport.
This is a non argument based on a bunch of dodgy assumptions.
Transexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
Transexual people interested in sports who win are rarer still. As much as the media likes to pretend any man or trans person who picks up a ball instantly crushes all women, thats just not the way it works.
If not winning stops you from taking part in sports then you really don't get the entire point of sport.
The gains to be made from transexual people as a whole keeping in shape, being able to have a social life etc... Are far greater than any potential loss from another girl once in a blue moon coming second in an unimportant game.
Quoteas you admit yourself, it's based on science, not bigotry.
What is? - sports long standing decades long attempts to define the boundaries of who is a woman for completion? Yes.
The current trans panic about trans people in sports? No. It merely hides behind a mask of dodgy science, much as bigotry always does when it goes mainstream..
And "admit"? :rolleyes:
Squeeze, a bit back you linked a study that showed trans female members of the US Air Force had no physical advantage over cis female zoomies after two years of hormone replacement, which I found convincing and I said as much at the time. These rulings by the two sports bodies, and your support for their positions, appear to contradict the findings of that study.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2022, 02:42:43 AMSqueeze, a bit back you linked a study that showed trans female members of the US Air Force had no physical advantage over cis female zoomies after two years of hormone replacement, which I found convincing and I said as much at the time. These rulings by the two sports bodies, and your support for their positions, appear to contradict the findings of that study.
Yes. This is a concern.
On the surface they've seemed to ignore the actual science whilst claiming to be deciding based on science. I haven't looked into the specifics however.
But then this is a big part of why calls for banning all trans people from sport are so stupid. Different events call for different muscles; totally feasible having gone through male puberty could have a lasting impact in some but not others. Which indeed is the way the rules are setup in athletics, re: caster semenya.
Maybe there is a different study which finds for all swimming events there is a lasting advantage. But I haven't seen it.
I could be wrong but I think Rugby Union did something similar which League has possibly followed - in that I think the main concern wasn't competitive advantage but safety/player welfare.
FINA's take on it seems quite reasonable and seems to be backed by recent studies.
And it's not going to be that different from a bunch of other classifications and limitation in sport, will it? I am probably some insensitive something-fobic jerk but I think this is ok.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2022, 02:42:43 AMSqueeze, a bit back you linked a study that showed trans female members of the US Air Force had no physical advantage over cis female zoomies after two years of hormone replacement, which I found convincing and I said as much at the time. These rulings by the two sports bodies, and your support for their positions, appear to contradict the findings of that study.
It could certainly be the case that in the main, there is no *significant* advantage in the arena of the US Air Force.
But at the elite levels of competition, the physical differences are magnified, and become extreme. That is why they are elite athletes - they are the 0.1% of the population who by definition our statistical outliers.
It is why it may very well be the case that this is a non-issue in almost all cases of competitive sports, but a significant issue in some cases.
Trans woman on the high school basketball team? May not matter at all. On the D1 NCAA basketball team? Could matter a lot.
Or not. We won't figure it out here. Let the science do its thing I say.
Quote from: Josquius on June 22, 2022, 12:50:54 AMTransexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
Then, it goes both ways: some medias are making it such an issue when all it really concerns are a dozen people worldwide...
QuoteTransexual people interested in sports who win are rarer still. As much as the media likes to pretend any man or trans person who picks up a ball instantly crushes all women, thats just not the way it works.
Then have them compete unofficially.
QuoteIf not winning stops you from taking part in sports then you really don't get the entire point of sport.
We are talking about
competitive sports. Playing tennis with your friend is not the same as playing at Winbledon. Tennis athletes who compete at a level sufficient to reach international competition don't do it for the simple fun of it. They enjoy playing tennis, but it's also their job, they do it to make money.
But before you reach that, you have to be discovered. And to be discovered, you need to climb through the minor leagues. And you climb through those leagues by winning, not just by participating.
QuoteThe gains to be made from transexual people as a whole keeping in shape, being able to have a social life etc... Are far greater than any potential loss from another girl once in a blue moon coming second in an unimportant game.
You have to be in shape to play a competitive sport. Hockey and football players don't get in shape by playing their sports, they have to be in shape to play their sports.
Second, you talk of the social life of trans, but you do that by denying the ones from young girls who won't be able to participate in competitive sports. Limited places to be had, the places goes to the top performers. In a race, if you take the 10 best racers to advance to the next competition and 2 of these places are occupied by transgirls, it means two genetic little girls are denied the sports they like. Essentially, you are sacrificing one group for the other.
Instead of trying to find answers to the core issue of why so many people believe they are of the wrong gender, you want society to adapt to them by denying freedoms to other girls and women. It is no more right than a blanket discrimination against all trans in any and all circumstance.
[/quote]
Quote from: Josquius on June 22, 2022, 12:50:54 AMTransexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
This goes both ways though. If trans people who are interested in sports are so rare, why do we need to make special accomodation for them?
Going through transition is a HUGE deal. Whether or not you will be able to compete in some sport afterwards seems like a trivial variable in that decision.
If it is so rare, then why do we need to expend massive political and social capital to let 1 trans-women compete against cis women in the highest levels of swimming, for example?
QuoteThe gains to be made from transexual people as a whole keeping in shape, being able to have a social life etc... Are far greater than any potential loss from another girl once in a blue moon coming second in an unimportant game.
You do not need to compete in a sport at the very highest level, or any level for that matter, to keep in shape or have a social life.
If winning is not that important, then it's an argument that cuts both ways. The debate is about trans people being allowed to compete in categories restricted to women, as opposed to only being allowed in open categories. You're probably not going to be winning in open category while suppressing your testosterone production, but winning is not important in sports.
Quote from: DGuller on June 22, 2022, 10:48:29 AMIf winning is not that important, then it's an argument that cuts both ways. The debate is about trans people being allowed to compete in categories restricted to women, as opposed to only being allowed in open categories. You're probably not going to be winning in open category while suppressing your testosterone production, but winning is not important in sports.
Taking part however is.
And womens and mens sports are vastly more common than "open" sports.
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2022, 10:39:23 AMThis goes both ways though. If trans people who are interested in sports are so rare, why do we need to make special accomodation for them?Going through transition is a HUGE deal. Whether or not you will be able to compete in some sport afterwards seems like a trivial variable in that decision.
If it is so rare, then why do we need to expend massive political and social capital to let 1 trans-women compete against cis women in the highest levels of swimming, for example?
We don't.
This is a reframing of reality which is being pushed heavily these days.
Nobody is forcing trans acceptance in places where it wasn't before. Rather the case is there has never been rules against trans people in various situations and some have decided there now needs to be.
Specific to sports, governing bodies have been struggling with defining who qualifies a woman for decades - always changing as new edge cases pop up and show the problem with the old way.
Some trans people qualified under these rules. It's simple as that.
Quote[serif]You do not need to compete in a sport at the very highest level, or any level for that matter, to keep in shape or have a social life.[/font][/size][/color]
Yes.
But that's not what is being talked about here. It's those who want trans people banned from all sports altogether.
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2022, 10:14:01 AMQuote from: Josquius on June 22, 2022, 12:50:54 AMTransexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
Then, it goes both ways: some medias are making it such an issue when all it really concerns are a dozen people worldwide...
I don't get what you're saying. How does this go both ways? That was my point.
QuoteThen have them compete unofficially.
How does this work? They register themselves under a friend's name?
I'm not sure this is a solution.
QuoteWe are talking about competitive sports. Playing tennis with your friend is not the same as playing at Winbledon. Tennis athletes who compete at a level sufficient to reach international competition don't do it for the simple fun of it. They enjoy playing tennis, but it's also their job, they do it to make money.
No we aren't. We are talking about all sports. That's what the transphobes are calling for. They use Wimbledon at all as an example as that's where its obvious to see why someone dishonest would pretend to be a woman, but their goal is no less than rolling back trans rights in society at large. It's the problem with their fundamental black and white world vies.
QuoteBut before you reach that, you have to be discovered. And to be discovered, you need to climb through the minor leagues. And you climb through those leagues by winning, not just by participating.
I went to school with a girl who made it onto the England women's football squad and had a career as a football player.
Before she was discovered in my area there weren't many girls interested in football so she played with the boys. She was good, but not the absolute best.
Nonetheless the scouts were capable of recognising her ability.
This is actually a traditional problem with scouting in the UK - we pay too much attention to winners, thus favouring the kids who are physically large whilst overlooking younger kids and late bloomers. In recent years there's been big efforts to overcome this.
So assume an athletics scout shows up to a local schools sports meeting. He watches a race where a transexual wins with a cisgender girl a second behind.
Do you really think he'd just dismiss the cisgender girl because she didn't win?
Assuming trans gender people are barred from higher levels, the cisgender girl still stands out as the best option there despite being officially second.
It's perfectly possible, ignoring all trans issues, in a given race the top 5 racers in the country could all be running thus a 5th place runner gets a place on a 5 girl squad.
Hell. Going back to the development issue, again ignoring all trans issues, it's not beyond the bounds of reason some girl coming a distant 3rd could be the one selected as she shows the most promise whilst those above her are seen as unlikely to ever improve.
QuoteYou have to be in shape to play a competitive sport. Hockey and football players don't get in shape by playing their sports, they have to be in shape to play their sports.
Second, you talk of the social life of trans, but you do that by denying the ones from young girls who won't be able to participate in competitive sports. Limited places to be had, the places goes to the top performers. In a race, if you take the 10 best racers to advance to the next competition and 2 of these places are occupied by transgirls, it means two genetic little girls are denied the sports they like. Essentially, you are sacrificing one group for the other.
Do you actually believe this?
Or is it just something you've learned is the way to argue against trans rights? - the whole muddy the water, no I'm not against human rights you are!
Letting trans people join a woman's sports club in no way hurts the women who are members.
Nobody here has proposed that women be banned from all sports altogether.
The issue that has come up here on Languish has been around the claim that trans-women are just women, and should be treated as such in all cases, including at all levels of competitive sports, and any suggestion otherwise is transphobia.
It's amusing to watch everyone backpedal now that the governing bodies are taking the exact position that previously had people calling others bigots for holding it.
Mens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
There have been a handful of examples of women playing in various male sports, but usually at lower levels. I don't think the reason there aren't more is sexism.
(By the way this is only true at high level / elite sports. I know plenty of women who can kick my ass in hockey)
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PMQuote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477
1. This is an article from 2006.
2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3
3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2022, 10:08:14 AMNobody here has proposed that women be banned from all sports altogether.
The issue that has come up here on Languish has been around the claim that trans-women are just women, and should be treated as such in all cases, including at all levels of competitive sports, and any suggestion otherwise is transphobia.
It's amusing to watch everyone backpedal now that the governing bodies are taking the exact position that previously had people calling others bigots for holding it.
Viper mentioned banning trans people altogether - this is the transphobic view that they set against the strawman of any rule that results in a trans person being excluded is bad and any guy should be able to self declare the day of the tournament and that's that. Which nobody believes.
Who is pack pedalling?
I think your memory might be fuzzy here. I can't recall anyone ever saying on Languish that any attempts by sports bodies to define the boundaries of which women can compete is transphobia.
There is an issue if they specifically ban trans people just because they're trans. Which I hope isn't happening here, I haven't seen their actual wording and hope the media is being the media.
As I've said a million times they've been struggling with drawing the boundaries of which women can compete since forever.
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 01:41:11 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PMQuote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477
1. This is an article from 2006.
2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3
3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2
Yes, I was merely pointing out that there have been men's sports teams do segregate unless forced not to. The earlier poster was not aware that this has been the situation.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:09:48 PMQuote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 01:41:11 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PMQuote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477
1. This is an article from 2006.
2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3
3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2
Yes, I was merely pointing out that there have been men's sports teams do segregate unless forced not to. The earlier poster was not aware that this has been the situation.
1. DGuller did say "vast majority", not "all".
2. Your example was from 16 years ago, dealt with Winnipeg High School hockey (which, by the way, is not the highest level of hockey for that age group), and was overruled 16 years ago when challenged.
3. Although there is separate girl's hockey available, my kids have frequently had girls on their hockey teams. My understanding is they pretty much all self-select over to women's hockey once puberty hits but only by their own choice. There almost certainly are some exceptions - heck I heard a girl was selected as a skater in the WHL draft this year - first time that's ever happened.
"vast majority of the time"
The only one I can think of that I see with some regularity is wrestling
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 02:19:27 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:09:48 PMQuote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 01:41:11 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PMQuote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man). I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477
1. This is an article from 2006.
2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3
3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2
Yes, I was merely pointing out that there have been men's sports teams do segregate unless forced not to. The earlier poster was not aware that this has been the situation.
1. DGuller did say "vast majority", not "all".
2. Your example was from 16 years ago, dealt with Winnipeg High School hockey (which, by the way, is not the highest level of hockey for that age group), and was overruled 16 years ago when challenged.
3. Although there is separate girl's hockey available, my kids have frequently had girls on their hockey teams. My understanding is they pretty much all self-select over to women's hockey once puberty hits but only by their own choice. There almost certainly are some exceptions - heck I heard a girl was selected as a skater in the WHL draft this year - first time that's ever happened.
Ok, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots. But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots. But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.
Holy Strawman Argument, Batman!
Absolutely no one has argued that "things did not have to be forced to change through legal process." No one. That's all you.
DG's assertion was expressed in the present tense. Bringing up evidence that applied 16 years ago but does not apply today does nothing whatsoever to contradict his statement (which was only about his awareness, in any case).
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots. But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.
grumbler is old enough to remember when wrestlers were nude in the olympics.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2022, 04:14:43 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots. But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.
grumbler is old enough to remember when wrestlers were nude in the olympics.
Not just the Olympics: the word "gymnasium" literally means "place where people are naked"in classical Greek.
Greeks did everything naked. I was reading Hesiod the other day and he suggests plowing fields naked.
Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PMI've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.
It is the in for the transphobes.
The thing is that yes this is an issue. But it is such a small issue that only impacts sports at the very highest levels of competition. something that will only likely impact a small percentage of athletes, much less people. So sure for like 0.01% of cis and transwomen this problem is a big deal and does need a solution. But ultimately if sports are made unfair for elite cis woman athletes and that is the price we have to pay for full trans acceptance, that is not exactly the end of the world. But I am sure there is a better solution than that and we will find one.
It is really unfortunate, and frankly bullshit, that this is what is being used to go after trans people.
Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2022, 04:09:32 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots. But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.
Holy Strawman Argument, Batman!
Absolutely no one has argued that "things did not have to be forced to change through legal process." No one. That's all you.
DG's assertion was expressed in the present tense. Bringing up evidence that applied 16 years ago but does not apply today does nothing whatsoever to contradict his statement (which was only about his awareness, in any case).
You didn't pay attention then. The post I responded to originally proposed that men's sports are mostly open to women in the context of arguments in this thread about trans athletes competing with women. the subtext, of course, is that anyone can compete with men if they are able to do so.
The simple point is that is definitely a recent phenomenon. Until recently women had trouble even playing hockey - they were relegated to ringette.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 09:07:01 PMQuote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PMI've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.
It is the in for the transphobes.
The thing is that yes this is an issue. But it is such a small issue that only impacts sports at the very highest levels of competition. something that will only likely impact a small percentage of athletes, much less people. So sure for like 0.01% of cis and transwomen this problem is a big deal and does need a solution. But ultimately if sports are made unfair for elite cis woman athletes and that is the price we have to pay for full trans acceptance, that is not exactly the end of the world. But I am sure there is a better solution than that and we will find one.
It is really unfortunate, and frankly bullshit, that this is what is being used to go after trans people.
I've said this before in other arguments:
The fact that something happens in really small numbers isn't actually an argument we shouldn't do anything about it. It in fact means that if we do something about it it will be really easy since it affects so few people.
Are some people making arguments about transwomen participating in elite sports against ciswomen made in bad faith? Sure. But do they also have a point? Also true.
Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2022, 02:01:15 PMQuote from: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 09:07:01 PMQuote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PMI've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.
It is the in for the transphobes.
The thing is that yes this is an issue. But it is such a small issue that only impacts sports at the very highest levels of competition. something that will only likely impact a small percentage of athletes, much less people. So sure for like 0.01% of cis and transwomen this problem is a big deal and does need a solution. But ultimately if sports are made unfair for elite cis woman athletes and that is the price we have to pay for full trans acceptance, that is not exactly the end of the world. But I am sure there is a better solution than that and we will find one.
It is really unfortunate, and frankly bullshit, that this is what is being used to go after trans people.
I've said this before in other arguments:
The fact that something happens in really small numbers isn't actually an argument we shouldn't do anything about it. It in fact means that if we do something about it it will be really easy since it affects so few people.
Are some people making arguments about transwomen participating in elite sports against ciswomen made in bad faith? Sure. But do they also have a point? Also true.
Of course they have a point, that is why this is their in. That is what I was saying. They can find agreement here and use that for their ends. That was my entire point.
And of course something should be done but not to the detriment of a larger amount of people than we are helping.
I thought that was clear in my post.
Quote from: Valmy on June 24, 2022, 02:21:58 PMOf course they have a point, that is why this is their in. That is what I was saying. They can find agreement here and use that for their ends. That was my entire point.
And of course something should be done but not to the detriment of a larger amount of people than we are helping.
I thought that was clear in my post.
Pick your battleground.
If transwomen competing against ciswomen is a losing argument, don't ague the point. Concede. If it's their "in", don't let them have it.
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 02:19:27 PM1. DGuller did say "vast majority", not "all".
I agree with you on the dubiousness of CC's citation, but I'm not sure "vast majority" holds, at least by participation rate. Two of the largest professional sports in the world, tennis and association football, are still today strictly segregated. The Netherlands only recently reversed this (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57164928) for adult teams, and as far as I can tell it is still FIFA's policy internationally (I haven't found a citation to their eligibility rules yet). ATP rules (https://www.atptour.com/-/media/files/rulebook/2022/2022-atp-rulebook_chapter-7_the-competition-10may16.pdf) require a player to be male or female-to-male transgender to play in a men's competition.