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I've got some lower back pain at the moment and several colleagues are suggesting I go see a Chiropractor while several other colleagues are suggesting that Chiropractors are just quacks and are not legitimate medical practitioners.  I've never been to one, never really heard the positive or negative reviews of them one way or another so I bring this poll to the masses. 

What is the opinion of Languish on Chiropractors?

Never visited one, so I don't have anything to go on.  But what else are you going to do if you have back problems?

Quacks. But if your pain problem is all in your head, you'll find chiropractors to be excellent medical practitioners.

Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2009, 11:21:11 AM
Never visited one, so I don't have anything to go on.  But what else are you going to do if you have back problems?

Visit an orthopedic surgeon, neurosurgeon, or physiatrist.

Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

I once had a chiropractor give me a sample back and neck fixin...I was in horrible pain for the next two weeks.  >:(

Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2009, 11:21:11 AM
Never visited one, so I don't have anything to go on.  But what else are you going to do if you have back problems?

Steal oxycotin and drink a lot.

Quote from: derspiess on March 12, 2009, 11:21:11 AM
But what else are you going to do if you have back problems?

Massage therapist / physiotherapist.

There are all kinds of problems with chiropractors, and some limited goodness.  Chiropracty started out with some absolutely outrageous claims - that almost everything health-related can be tied to sublimations of the disks of your spine.  There has never been any medical evidence to this effect.

Chiropractors do give some short term relief of pain, so in that I guess they do some good.  It is not a long-term solution to anything however - it's never a "get your spine manipulated 6 times then you'll be good".  You'll always be going to your chiropractor.

And there's the small but real risk of strokes / aneurysms that are connected to spine manipulation.

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

Why do you have to keep going for 8 years?  If they could truly fix you you wouldn't have to keep going...

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

This is what we call a placebo effect.

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 11:28:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

This is what we call a placebo effect.

I used to watch you on the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon.  You do good work.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:27:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

Why do you have to keep going for 8 years?  If they could truly fix you you wouldn't have to keep going...

Although I agree with you in general about chiropractors, this reasoning is faulty when it comes to chronic conditions. There is value in medicine that truly manages the symptoms.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:27:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

Why do you have to keep going for 8 years?  If they could truly fix you you wouldn't have to keep going...

They adjust your spine so you have to go back every 6 weeks or so to get readjusted

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 11:28:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

This is what we call a placebo effect.

It fucking works that's all I care about.   :P

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:33:04 AM
They adjust your spine so you have to go back every 6 weeks or so to get readjusted

It's quite the racket they have going, isn't it.


Vince - what is your medical concern?  Have you seen a doctor about it, or even better, a physiotherapist?

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:33:41 AM

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 11:28:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

This is what we call a placebo effect.

It fucking works that's all I care about.   :P

I'm sure it does work for you. The brain has a powerful role in physical health.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:35:07 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:33:04 AM
They adjust your spine so you have to go back every 6 weeks or so to get readjusted

It's quite the racket they have going, isn't it.


Vince - what is your medical concern?  Have you seen a doctor about it, or even better, a physiotherapist?

There isn't really an effective cure for "lower back pain," so quack science that relies on the mental state of the patient has a lot of room to prosper.

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 12, 2009, 11:29:27 AM
I used to watch you on the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon.  You do good work.

;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 11:37:42 AM
There isn't really an effective cure for "lower back pain,"

Disagree.  Physical therapy is very effective in managing back pain (I wouldn't call it a cure though).  The problem of course is that its hard work, and people don't like to do hard work (I know nothing of Vince's condition and this comment is meant only generally, and not directed at him).

By the way - how do I know much about this?

I started out in law doing Insurance Defense.  Lots of plaintiffs seeking huge damages would go to chiropractors, and typically our doctors would point out that back-cracking wouldn't actually help them get better.  Plus as part of that work I wound up reading several articles that were very critical of chiropracty.

Quote from: PRC on March 12, 2009, 11:19:14 AM
I've got some lower back pain at the moment and several colleagues are suggesting I go see a Chiropractor while several other colleagues are suggesting that Chiropractors are just quacks and are not legitimate medical practitioners.  I've never been to one, never really heard the positive or negative reviews of them one way or another so I bring this poll to the masses. 

What is the opinion of Languish on Chiropractors?

Legitimate.  They are part of a unique federation, with rules, just like doctor.

Try it, if nothing else is working, it's worth a shot.

Quote from: viper37 on March 12, 2009, 11:47:54 AM
Legitimate.  They are part of a unique federation, with rules, just like doctor.

Try it, if nothing else is working, it's worth a shot.

They're part of a unique federation because doctors, by and large, do not recognize chiropracty as a medical treatment.  The doctros medical federations won't allow chiropractors to join their organization.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
They're part of a unique federation because doctors, by and large, do not recognize chiropracty as a medical treatment.  The doctros medical federations won't allow chiropractors to join their organization.

Yep.

The wife is a clinic manager for an orthopedic group, for some things (mild cases without surgery) the doctors tell patients that going to a chiropractor is fine - but the one area they advise against going is for neck problems.  Their reasoning is that adjustments may help somewhat (even if just for the placebo effect) and don't really cause harm other than a continued dependence on the "cure" to the problem.

I would suggest a back specialist first, as no amount of adjustments will cure a bad disk or the like - but if it is indeed a mild problem then eventually going to a quack pseudo-science "doctor" could indeed help.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:44:34 AM

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 11:37:42 AM
There isn't really an effective cure for "lower back pain,"

Disagree.  Physical therapy is very effective in managing back pain (I wouldn't call it a cure though).  The problem of course is that its hard work, and people don't like to do hard work (I know nothing of Vince's condition and this comment is meant only generally, and not directed at him).

Yeah yeah you're implying I'm a lazy bastard and you know it!   >:(

Find someone that is satisfied with one and go to that one...

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:26:41 AM
Massage therapist / physiotherapist.

These are just like chiropractors, as a matter of fact!  :D

QuoteChiropractors do give some short term relief of pain, so in that I guess they do some good.  It is not a long-term solution to anything however - it's never a "get your spine manipulated 6 times then you'll be good".  You'll always be going to your chiropractor.

While you have never had a chiropractor that gave a series of treatments and stopped, your assumption that chiropractors in general are like this reeks of ignorance.  I have been to two chiropractors and each time had a limited series of treatments for specific back or neck ailments, with complete success in both cases.

For my lower back pain, i went to an MD for almost 5 months with nothing but temporary relief.  Six visits to the chiropractor and the pain was gone for good.

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:08:16 PM
For my lower back pain, i went to an MD for almost 5 months with nothing but temporary relief.  Six visits to the chiropractor and the pain was gone for good.

Not all chiropractors are high enough level successfully lay on hands.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:27:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

Why do you have to keep going for 8 years?  If they could truly fix you you wouldn't have to keep going...

Exactly.  It is like boneheads who go see their doctor every year.  Why bother/  If the doctor was any good, he would make them permanently healthy, and if he isn't good there is no sense going to see him.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
They're part of a unique federation because doctors, by and large, do not recognize chiropracty as a medical treatment.  The doctros medical federations won't allow chiropractors to join their organization.

Yeah, and they won't allow lawyers, either!  ;D

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:13:31 PM

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
They're part of a unique federation because doctors, by and large, do not recognize chiropracty as a medical treatment.  The doctros medical federations won't allow chiropractors to join their organization.

Yeah, and they won't allow lawyers, either!  ;D

This makes sense. Neither chiropractors nor lawyers practice medicine based upon medical science.

Quote from: PDH on March 12, 2009, 12:11:10 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:08:16 PM
For my lower back pain, i went to an MD for almost 5 months with nothing but temporary relief.  Six visits to the chiropractor and the pain was gone for good.

Not all chiropractors are high enough level successfully lay on hands.

Agreed.  Not all chiropractors are good ones (just like doctors, and, as we see on languish, lawyers), and not all problems they are willing to treat are best treated by chiropractics (again, just like doctors and lawyers).

I was once as ignorant and prejudiced against chiropractors as, say, Fate or Beeb.  I have learned differently from personal experience.

Vince and Grumbler, perhaps you should look into healing magnets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_2kptRFngH2E%2FSECQrs3MKeI%2FAAAAAAAAAFI%2FBn9puh1GUVA%2Fs400%2FHow%252BMagnet%252BWorks.jpg&hash=a5df6c2a080c13a4167b854bb482400c007e65b3)

Ok well, I can see that the opinion here is just as split as in my office.  All right, well I will go see the Chiropractor recommended by my colleague and judge for myself.

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:16:05 PM
This makes sense. Neither chiropractors nor lawyers practice medicine

Fixed.  Chiropractics is not medicine, any more than any other physical therapy is.  Physical therapists aren't in the AMA either.

grumbler's support has convinced me that they are quacks.

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:18:39 PM
Vince and Grumbler, perhaps you should look into healing magnets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_2kptRFngH2E%2FSECQrs3MKeI%2FAAAAAAAAAFI%2FBn9puh1GUVA%2Fs400%2FHow%252BMagnet%252BWorks.jpg&hash=a5df6c2a080c13a4167b854bb482400c007e65b3)

Nah, I'll leave that kind of stuff to you.  If you think it works on yourself, then more power to ya.  Just don't rely on magnets for everything; moderation in all things is the key.

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:20:11 PM

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:16:05 PM
This makes sense. Neither chiropractors nor lawyers practice medicine

hiropractics is not medicine, any more than any other physical therapy is.

Chiropractics is based upon neither medicine nor science. The best descriptor would be a cult.

However, physical therapy is a field of medical science.

Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2009, 12:21:27 PM
grumbler's support has convinced me that they are quacks.

Still irked by the joke, eh?  ;D

I'd have to say quackery. They make you feel good in the short term but do nothing for your back health in the long term. Yoga is better.

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:22:10 PM
Chiropractics is based upon neither medicine nor science. The best descriptor would be a cult.

...says the guy trying to push "healing magnets"!  :D

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:22:29 PM

Quote from: The Brain on March 12, 2009, 12:21:27 PM
grumbler's support has convinced me that they are quacks.

Still irked by the joke, eh?  ;D

Never forgive, never forget. That's my motto.

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:23:58 PM

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:22:10 PM
Chiropractics is based upon neither medicine nor science. The best descriptor would be a cult.

...says the guy trying to push "healing magnets"!  :D

Healing magnets are no less effective at curing pain than chiropractors. Plus they accessorize well.  ;D

Chiropractics is not based upon science. I see that you are avoiding this fact.

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 11:27:20 AM

Quote from: Vince on March 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Legit.  Been going to one for 8 years.  The people that call them quacks have never gone to one.

Why do you have to keep going for 8 years?  If they could truly fix you you wouldn't have to keep going...

Exactly.  It is like boneheads who go see their doctor every year.  Why bother/  If the doctor was any good, he would make them permanently healthy, and if he isn't good there is no sense going to see him.

It's good to see that you're keeping it classy and not making it personal grumbler.

I'm glad the chiro you went to only gave a few adjustments and stopped.  Obviously when speaking in generalities I can't speak for every chiro everywhere.  I have heard way too many stories of chiros prescribing a lifetime of adjustments such as Vince described.

There's a pretty clear difference between a doctor's physical check-up, and regular spinal manipulations.  The doctor will administer tests and if everything is healthy no new treatment will be administered.  I suspect that an annual visit to a chiro will involve an annual manipulation.

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 12:36:04 PMannual manipulation.

:perv:

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:26:26 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:23:58 PM

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:22:10 PM
Chiropractics is based upon neither medicine nor science. The best descriptor would be a cult.

...says the guy trying to push "healing magnets"!  :D

Healing magnets are no less effective at curing pain than chiropractors. Plus they accessorize well.  ;D

Chiropractics is not based upon science. I see that you are avoiding this fact.

I woke up one morning to listen to a 'natural' cure peddler on the radio.  One her things was this plate you stand on that clears out all the negative ions from your body.  Made me feel almost pity for anybody stupid enough to buy one.  But the pity was quickly subsumed by contempt.

Alternative medicine = fail. Western medicine ftw.

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:17:09 PM
I was once as ignorant and prejudiced against chiropractors as, say, Fate or Beeb.  I have learned differently from personal experience.

And I could point to a friend who had his leg paralyzed for a few weeks from a manipulatioin.  But you'd rightly point out that anecdotal evidence isn't a particularily effective form of argument.

Quote from: Evil Spock on March 12, 2009, 12:22:38 PM
I'd have to say quackery. They make you feel good in the short term but do nothing for your back health in the long term. Yoga is better.

The fact that chiropractics do not permanently "cure" back conditions does not make the practice quackery.  Chiropractics relieve stress and pain in the back so that it can heal, and does so far more reliably (in my experience) than medicine.  It isn't a cure-all, and anyone that claims it is is engaged in quackery, just as anyone claiming that medicine is a cure-all is engaged in quackery.

Yoga is a form of physical therapy, and no more or less "scientific" than chiropractics.  It is better at maintaining back tone than chiropractics, but almost useless at alleviating acute conditions (which is where chiropractics shine).

Quote from: Tiamat on March 12, 2009, 12:18:39 PM
Vince and Grumbler, perhaps you should look into healing magnets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_2kptRFngH2E%2FSECQrs3MKeI%2FAAAAAAAAAFI%2FBn9puh1GUVA%2Fs400%2FHow%252BMagnet%252BWorks.jpg&hash=a5df6c2a080c13a4167b854bb482400c007e65b3)

No way those screw up my tinfoil hats.   :P

Quote from: Barrister on March 12, 2009, 12:36:04 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 12:11:37 PM
Exactly.  It is like boneheads who go see their doctor every year.  Why bother/  If the doctor was any good, he would make them permanently healthy, and if he isn't good there is no sense going to see him.

It's good to see that you're keeping it classy and not making it personal grumbler.

Irony isn't just the opposite of wrinkly!  ;D

QuoteI'm glad the chiro you went to only gave a few adjustments and stopped.  Obviously when speaking in generalities I can't speak for every chiro everywhere.  I have heard way too many stories of chiros prescribing a lifetime of adjustments such as Vince described.

I am glad that you have heard many stories, but saddened that you, supposedly training in logic as a lawyer, would stoop to the old "I never heard of it in my limited reading, so I will say it never happens." 

I am not the one taking absolute positions here.

Quote from: grumbler on March 12, 2009, 01:00:50 PM
I am not the one taking absolute positions here.

You may consider the "never" in my statement cheerfully retracted.

I think it depends on the chiropractor. I went to one who treated me with some manipulations but also with ultra-sound and other treatments. That helped, and seemed more designed to be flexible treatments depending on the injury or problem. Not just manipulations; some of what an orthopedic doctor or physical therapist might also do. Another one seemed to feel we should go every week or two for adjustments, which I don't agree with.

I vote go.

Chiropractors: There's both quacks and legits out there, just like "traditional" doctors. The chiropractor around the corner from me happens to also be licensed in sports medicine and radiology.

Quacks.

For a second I thought this thread was about dinosaurs. 
Then I learned how to read :-[

My opinion is mixed, but tilts to "quack".  My dad had a numbness in his arm, and it was due to a pinched nerve in his spine.  His chiropractor seemed to fix it just fine, and in a couple of appointments.

However, after fixing that condition, he kept finding other things that needed fixing, and always by spine manipulation.  He also imparted the usual idiotic chiropractic theories on my dad, for which he is always a willing audience.  The more things the chiropractor found wrong with my dad and was starting to treat, the more frequently my dad's back has been seizing at random moments.

At first the appointments were covered by insurance.  After the insurance limit has been reached, the chiropractor was still willing to see my dad for just the co-pay.  Thankfully for my dad's back, he moved to another place, and it was too far to the guy's office in the new place.  He's been doing just fine without any further chiropractic therapy.

Quote from: DGuller on March 15, 2009, 01:53:09 AMMy opinion is mixed, but tilts to "quack".  My dad had a numbness in his arm, and it was due to a pinched nerve in his spine.  His chiropractor seemed to fix it just fine, and in a couple of appointments.

However, after fixing that condition, he kept finding other things that needed fixing, and always by spine manipulation.  He also imparted the usual idiotic chiropractic theories on my dad, for which he is always a willing audience.  The more things the chiropractor found wrong with my dad and was starting to treat, the more frequently my dad's back has been seizing at random moments.

At first the appointments were covered by insurance.  After the insurance limit has been reached, the chiropractor was still willing to see my dad for just the co-pay.  Thankfully for my dad's back, he moved to another place, and it was too far to the guy's office in the new place.  He's been doing just fine without any further chiropractic therapy.

That's a quack. My chiropractor was treating me for golfer's elbow (basically, tennis elbow on the other side of the joint), and he always did it at the site. Also, he treated my wrist, which was smashed and then disfigured when the orthopedic doctor fucked up, and again did it at the joint (the problem had nothing to do with spine, pinched nerves, or magnets... because there's a centimeter of bone missing from the inside of my wrist, the tendon isn't aligned properly).

I've actually had worse experiences with orthopedics being quacks than with chiropractors, but I guess I've been lucky on the latter.

For some reason I always think this has to do with Grasshoppers or Birds.

Upon reflection, I think I would say that it is a lot easier for a quck to become a chiropractor than a doctor, so far more quacks do so, thus the reputation.

Often back and neck pain problems are not really associated with an actual medical condition, but with muscle strain (e.g. due to stress or an inappropriate sitting posture etc.) In such cases, going to a chiropractor or a masseur would help, because they would remove the strain, however what you would be really needing is, say, changing your lifestyle or at least buying a new chair.

If your back problems are medical however, then you need to see a doctor.

Also, it's important to know that lower back spine / muscle aches can be really a symptom of some other condition that is not connected with your spine at all. For example, chronic non-bacterial prostatitis (which, according to my doctor, is a common condition in today's males aged 25-40, and is an immune system disorder of unknown origins, other than it seems to occur more often in men with a sedentary work/lifestyle) can manifest by severe lower back pains if not treated.

So, in short, going to a doctor first is always a good idea.

I've often wondered if alot of issues with back pain are related to individual pain tolerance thresholds or something... my back aches on occasion, but nothing I'd never go see a doctor/chiropractor about.  OTOH, Princesca had a former co-worker that would run to the doctor the instant anything was slightly amiss with her and her kids, and she was a frequent chiropractic patient as well.

I'm not saying anything like people that visit chiropractors are wimps or anything, but I do wonder given back pain is one of those things that seems like it can be so nebulous.

I love my sweet, sweet Cataflam and its little brother, Voltaren Gel.

Quote from: Caliga on March 16, 2009, 07:43:44 AM
I've often wondered if alot of issues with back pain are related to individual pain tolerance thresholds or something... my back aches on occasion, but nothing I'd never go see a doctor/chiropractor about.  OTOH, Princesca had a former co-worker that would run to the doctor the instant anything was slightly amiss with her and her kids, and she was a frequent chiropractic patient as well.

I'm not saying anything like people that visit chiropractors are wimps or anything, but I do wonder given back pain is one of those things that seems like it can be so nebulous.

Well I can guarantee my back pain is real and while it is bearable (IE I don't wince every second) it has had an effect on my quality of life.  It's been about a month of feeling a dull pain in my lower back every waking moment, some days it has been debilitating where I have not been able to stand up straight.

Anyways I went to the Chiropractor my colleague recommended.  First he did a scan with this thing they roll up your back and then he took X-Rays.  The scan showed some coloured lines showing where problem areas were but the real dinger was the X-Rays.  The lower back area looked pretty fine it was my neck where there were issues and it was glaringly obvious even to me that this does not look normal.  From the side X-Ray my neck is straight rather than curved and from the front you can see that the alignment of the spine takes a sharp turn to the right side of my body.  Also from the front - if looking through the jaw at the top of the spine - this area does not look symetrical.  I believe this is from years of working at a desk.

The Chiropractor gave me the spiel about what he does and what his profession is all about.  I admit some skepticism on some of the things he said but overall it was really just common sense.  Anyways he gave me two adjustments and while I am still feeling pain I did perceive that the adjustments helped - clearly this could have been the placebo effect working on me and only time will tell.  He wanted me to return on a scheduled routine for up to a year which I did not commit too.  However I will be returning a few more times to see it through as I wasn't expecting to walk out of there after session being cured.  I will give him a few more sessions and then reassess what I should do.

Awesome, keep us posted.

Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2009, 06:45:52 AM
Upon reflection, I think I would say that it is a lot easier for a quck to become a chiropractor than a doctor, so far more quacks do so, thus the reputation.

That's the right idea, but you need to take it a bit further. Sicne chiropracty isn't regulated in any meaningful way, or based on any meaningful medical science, we can draw a simple distinction. Do you want to go to the guy that spent years in medical school to learn about the spine, back muscles, and other pertinent elements of physiology or do you want to go to the guy that couldn't be bothered? Better yet, which one do you want grabbing your spine and yanking?

QuoteAnyways I went to the Chiropractor my colleague recommended.  First he did a scan with this thing they roll up your back and then he took X-Rays.  The scan showed some coloured lines showing where problem areas were but the real dinger was the X-Rays.  The lower back area looked pretty fine it was my neck where there were issues and it was glaringly obvious even to me that this does not look normal.  From the side X-Ray my neck is straight rather than curved and from the front you can see that the alignment of the spine takes a sharp turn to the right side of my body.  Also from the front - if looking through the jaw at the top of the spine - this area does not look symetrical.  I believe this is from years of working at a desk.

If those x-rays are correct and being read accurately, that is if you have an actual neck problem, you REALLY need to go see a real doctor about it. As others have pointed out, there's a relative limit to the harm these quacks can do to the lower elements of your back, but the neck is serious shit.

Crystals and homeopathy are superior methods IMHO.

BTW, does anyone here like to crack their own back or neck?  I know I'm probably risking a stroke by doing that, but it's just so addictive.

Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2009, 12:32:21 PM
BTW, does anyone here like to crack their own back or neck?  I know I'm probably risking a stroke by doing that, but it's just so addictive.

No.

The critiques I've read of chiros also said that they are far too willing to order full torso x-rays in which they are not really trained in how to interpret them.

I'll see what I can find online...

Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2009, 06:45:52 AM
Upon reflection, I think I would say that it is a lot easier for a quck to become a chiropractor than a doctor, so far more quacks do so, thus the reputation.

In Quebec, all chiropractors need to be registered with a professional organization (just like doctors, or lawyers). 

A chiro can not practice without this registration, so the chances of having quacks there is greatly diminished.  Not impossible, as it is seen with doctors, some can operate without their license, albeit illegally.  I'm not sure if it's the same elsewhere in Canada.

Anyway, again, not quacks, but there are.

I'm much more concerned about professional areas where anyone can declare himself/herself a specialist of soft medicine with some meaningless diploma on the wall.  Much more quacks there.

Quote from: Caliga on March 16, 2009, 07:43:44 AM

I'm not saying anything like people that visit chiropractors are wimps or anything, but I do wonder given back pain is one of those things that seems like it can be so nebulous.

that's the thing with back pain, more often than not, the doctors can't see what's really wrong and can't objectively measure pain.
Some people have higher pain treshold than others, some are lower.

Sometimes, the doctors just don't want to operate the patient, or the patient is simply scared of the risks.

Other times, well, it pays to pretend you're in pain.  90% of your net wages without doing anything, all medical expenses repaid, and well, since you ain't really sick, you can easily work on the side with no fiscal consequences... and the risk of getting caught is really low, nearly non existent.

Quote from: vinraith on March 16, 2009, 12:10:32 PM

If those x-rays are correct and being read accurately, that is if you have an actual neck problem, you REALLY need to go see a real doctor about it. As others have pointed out, there's a relative limit to the harm these quacks can do to the lower elements of your back, but the neck is serious shit.

ah yes, sitting on a chair for 4hrs and then seeing a doctor telling him he needs surgery with a 65% chance of paralysis will greatly improve his conditions...

Hunting around a bit for chiro articles (why?  I don't know.  I have plenty of real work to do).  Hard to find completely unbiased articles.

This one (which is hosted on an anti-chiro site in the interests of full disclosure) seems fair in that the author recognizes some benefit to chiro therapy, and gives some guildelines for when looking for a chiro.

http://www.chirobase.org/01General/controversy.html

QuoteConsumer Guidelines
The SMT skill of chiropractors varies among individual practitioners. Chiropractic is a cottage industry without an arena that permits critical peer review like that hospitals provide for medical doctors.

When evaluating a chiropractor's claims, it is useful to ask him or her what diseases chiropractic adjustments cannot benefit. A rational practitioner will readily admit to great limitations in treating anything other than musculoskeletal problems. A less rational chiropractor may answer by dodging the question with a response such as "I treat only people who have spines," or "I don't treat diseases; I treat people." Such answers avoid the question and/or represent a belief in the subluxation theory.

There is no agency that can tell how good an individual chiropractor is as a spinal manipulative therapist. Consumers must generally rely upon the practitioner's local reputation. When choosing a chiropractor, consumers should exercise great caution and consider the following guidelines.

1. Have the problem evaluated by a medical doctor first. Have underlying serious illnesses ruled out before deciding that the problem is neuromusculoskeletal. Heart disease, cancer, kidney dis' ease, and other serious problems that need prompt medical care may manifest themselves as back pain and dysfunction. Don't allow an overzealous, inadequately trained chiropractor to keep you from prompt diagnosis and care. If the chiropractor recommends X-rays, have them done by a radiologist.

2. If you decide to try SMT, inform your doctor. Ask if there is any reason you should not have SMT (osteoporosis is one common contraindication). if not, ask for his or her help in locating the most skillful practitioner in the area (physiatrist, physical therapist, chiropractor, etc.). Some doctors feel that SMT hasn't been scientifically proven effective, but most are willing to go along with a patient who wishes to give it a try.

3. Remember that the main value of SMT lies in the rapidity of the relief it provides. If you have not experienced significant relief within three weeks, discontinue SMT. Do not submit to long-term care. Do not sign a contract. And do not accept the idea of preventive chiropractic care. Education about how to prevent back problems by safe lifting techniques, proper exercise, and ergogenics (analyzing and redesigning the workplace to avoid injuries) is valuable.

4. Avoid practitioners who:

Appear overconfident or cultist in their zeal for chiropractic care
Disparage regular medicine as jealously antichiropractic
Criticize prescription drugs or surgery in an ideological manner
Attack immunization, fluoridation, pasteurization, or other public health practices
X-ray all of their patients, or routinely use full-spine x-rays.
Use scare tactics such as claiming that the failure to undergo chiropractic care could lead to serious problems in the future
Sell herbs or dietary supplements
Perform colonic irrigations. These have no medical value and can be dangerous [23].
Claim that subluxations exist and that their correction is important.
5. Children should not be treated by chiropractors. There are no childhood conditions that chiropractors are better qualified than physicians to treat.

The bolding is mine, and is the one part of PRCs story that caused me some concern.  I've definitely read that such "full spine x-rays" are medically meaningless and used as a sales pitch by chiros.

Quote from: viper37 on March 16, 2009, 05:30:09 PM

Quote from: vinraith on March 16, 2009, 12:10:32 PM

If those x-rays are correct and being read accurately, that is if you have an actual neck problem, you REALLY need to go see a real doctor about it. As others have pointed out, there's a relative limit to the harm these quacks can do to the lower elements of your back, but the neck is serious shit.

ah yes, sitting on a chair for 4hrs and then seeing a doctor telling him he needs surgery with a 65% chance of paralysis will greatly improve his conditions...

Paralysis would cure the back pain, I would think.

Quote from: Barrister on March 16, 2009, 05:38:52 PM
Hunting around a bit for chiro articles (why?  I don't know.  I have plenty of real work to do).  Hard to find completely unbiased articles.

This one (which is hosted on an anti-chiro site in the interests of full disclosure) seems fair in that the author recognizes some benefit to chiro therapy, and gives some guildelines for when looking for a chiro.

This is probably as good a summary as I have seen.  It also fits with my experience (which, in two cases, was a result of doctors simply unable to treat what was wrong, and a chiroptactor who could).  Lots of bad chiropractors seem to be poisoning the well.  Thinking first of chiropractics to solve a roblem is nuts.  If anything, Chiropractors are specialists who should be treated if a GP cannot solve the problem.  In my cases, my doctor approved of seeking chiropractic help.

Quote from: grumbler on March 16, 2009, 11:43:36 PMThis is probably as good a summary as I have seen.  It also fits with my experience (which, in two cases, was a result of doctors simply unable to treat what was wrong, and a chiroptactor who could).  Lots of bad chiropractors seem to be poisoning the well.  Thinking first of chiropractics to solve a roblem is nuts.  If anything, Chiropractors are specialists who should be treated if a GP cannot solve the problem.  In my cases, my doctor approved of seeking chiropractic help.

Yeah. That's the meat of it. A good chiropractor is a specialist; a bad chiropractor is a wannabe GP with delusions of grandeur.

Quote from: DGuller on March 16, 2009, 05:42:29 PM
Paralysis would cure the back pain, I would think.

ah, yes, creating another problem to solve the existing one ;)

No idea.  Never really paid much attention.  They just struck me as a kind of physiotherapist.

I went to a chiropractor when my Doctor suggested I go to treat a specific alignment problem.  The problem was fixed in a couple sessions.