So I only started this thread because I need to share this NYT piece about Renzi. I don't think I've ever seen such an amazing interview with a politician or this level of self-regard for a man leading a party that's polling at 3% - and that's after 4 years of Trump:
QuoteRenzi's Power Play Is a 'Masterpiece.' He'll Be the First to Tell You.
With a series of maneuvers that could have made Machiavelli blush, the former prime minister gave Italy a new government. Just don't expect anyone to thank him for it.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/02/09/world/09italy-renzi1/merlin_183448926_194c7767-a9e8-498c-9a29-71e57df09b4e-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
"This was my strategy," said Matteo Renzi, center, who brought down Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte and cleared a path for the former central banker Mario Draghi to replace him.Credit...Alessandra Tarantino/Associated Press
By Jason Horowitz
Feb. 9, 2021
ROME — When Matteo Renzi, the former Italian prime minister currently polling at about 3 percent, triggered the collapse of the Italian government last month, he became the target of near universal opprobrium and bewilderment for plunging the country into political chaos in the middle of a pandemic.
Now he is taking a victory lap.
Mr. Renzi's gambit not only caused the fall of a prime minister and government he had excoriated as dangerously incompetent. It also resulted in a stunning upgrade that has led Mario Draghi, a titan of Europe largely credited with saving the euro, to assemble a broad national unity government, which is expected to take shape this week.
In Europe, Mr. Draghi's renown has immediately increased Italy's stature and credibility in absorbing and spending a huge relief package that could determine the future of both Italy and the European Union. At home, the gravity of Mr. Draghi's arrival has reordered the Italian political landscape and undercut Mr. Renzi's populist enemies.
"This was my strategy. I did it all alone, with 3 percent!" said Mr. Renzi, a onetime mayor of Florence who is not bashful about his ability to work the levers of power and outmaneuver the competition. "It's all a game of parliamentary tactics. And let's say that working for five years in the palace where Machiavelli worked helped a little."
Admirers of Mr. Renzi have marveled at his magic trick, in which he somehow created the conditions for Italy's president, Sergio Mattarella, to pull Mr. Draghi's name out of a hat. They have looked to Mr. Draghi — who as European Central Bank president famously said he would do "whatever it takes" to save the euro — as a savior after three years of Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte.
"The choice belongs to President Sergio Mattarella, the credit belongs to Matteo Renzi and his whatever it takes," wrote Christian Rocca, the editor of Linkiesta, a pro-European and anti-populist publication.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/02/09/world/09italy-renzi2/merlin_183225768_f9c3aba4-7099-43f9-b0d1-d8df019a07bd-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
The arrival of Mr. Draghi, center, has immediately increased Italy's stature and credibility in absorbing and spending a huge European relief package.Credit...Angelo Carconi/EPA, via Shutterstock
Mr. Renzi's fans talk about how he did the dirty work, tacitly desired by various political forces, to remove Mr. Conte. By doing so, they say, he at least temporarily brought down the curtain on a period of populist politics, ushered in by the anti-establishment Five Star Movement and the nationalist League party of Matteo Salvini.
But the most effusive praise of Mr. Renzi may come from Mr. Renzi.
"It's a masterpiece of Italian politics," he said of the events that brought Mr. Draghi to Rome.
Mr. Renzi's narcissism and naked ambition have made him insufferable to many Italians.
"Renzi remains the problem," said Gianfranco Pasquino, an emeritus professor of political science at the University of Bologna. Mr. Renzi's insatiable need for attention was "the one constant" in Italian politics, he said.
Love him or hate him — and many now fall into the latter category — what is hard to dispute is that Mr. Renzi is Italy's premier political operator, one who doesn't pass up on a political opportunity, raging virus or no raging virus.
"Why now? Why now? Why now?" Mr. Renzi said even his friends asked him as he pulled the plug just as Italy began its vaccine rollout. But he said the pandemic put in terrifying focus the risk of staying on the same course, especially as the country had to decide what to do with more than 200 billion euros in European relief funds. "If we didn't do it during the pandemic, we would have never done it."
Mr. Renzi has had practice in this sort of thing.
In 2014, he infamously tweeted that the prime minister, from his own party, should "be serene," and then took his job. The "demolition man" of Italian politics, as he was called, seemed unstoppable.
But in 2016, Mr. Renzi bet his office and ambitious reform agenda on a referendum to change the Italian Constitution, and all of his enemies aligned against him. He lost, resigned and promised to quit politics. Instead he stayed on as leader of the center-left Democratic Party.
That foothold mattered. In 2018, Five Star had the strongest showing in national elections, but lacked enough support to form a government on its own. It wooed the Democratic Party but Mr. Renzi wouldn't allow the marriage. Instead, Five Star joined with the nationalists of Mr. Salvini's League, forming an aggressively anti-European coalition. They chose Mr. Conte as their prime minister.
Mr. Renzi seemed yesterday's news. But in 2019, Mr. Salvini, surging in popularity, jettisoned the coalition, seeking to prompt elections and grab what he called "full powers." That's when Mr. Renzi struck. He reversed himself and forged an alliance between his party and Five Star, icing Mr. Salvini out into the opposition.
To increase his leverage in the new government, Mr. Renzi formed a new party, Italia Viva, which had just enough support to force Mr. Conte to rely on him for the government's survival. Mr. Renzi hoped his party's support would grow. It shrank.[/b]
In the meantime, Mr. Conte led Italy through the early months of the pandemic. His popularity skyrocketed and ate into the centrist atmosphere where Mr. Renzi's future ambitions resided. He took Mr. Renzi's support for granted. Always a mistake.
In January, as Covid-19 deaths racked up, curfews fell and economic frustration mounted, Mr. Renzi made a move that many considered unthinkable.
But even as many chalked up his felling of the government to a craven attempt to win more cabinet positions and influence, they acknowledged Mr. Renzi had some strong critiques on his side.
He blamed the government for failing to reform a glacial justice system that scared away outside investment. He criticized the government for a lack of vision in spending hundreds of billions of euros in European relief money. He demanded that Italy apply for up to €36 billion in cheap E.U. loans earmarked for health systems.
It was a poison pill, as populists in Mr. Conte's base of support in Five Star would never stomach giving Brussels too much power. The government fell, but Mr. Conte seemed confident he could replace Mr. Renzi's support with other lawmakers. Mr. Renzi told him good luck.
Mr. Conte became increasingly desperate and offered Mr. Renzi "a ton" of cabinet posts to join the government again, Mr. Renzi recounted. Instead, he strung Mr. Conte along and then, at the last minute, when he was convinced Mr. Draghi would come in, walked.
Mr. Renzi said his near rock-bottom popularity "absolutely" gave him the freedom to maneuver because instead of fearing losing support, "I was worried about losing the opportunity."
Days later Mr. Mattarella summoned Mr. Draghi.
That game of chicken played out in public. The question is: Did Mr. Renzi play a role behind closed doors in striking alliances to bring Mr. Draghi in?
Mr. Renzi said it was always his tacit desire to replace Mr. Conte with Mr. Draghi, whom he said he spoke to often about Italy's economic situation, including during the crisis. But he insisted that Mr. Draghi "never spoke to me" about getting into the position. Asked whether he, Mr. Renzi, had spoken to Mr. Draghi about such an outcome, Mr. Renzi replied, "Next question."
"I didn't do anything, it was all Mattarella. Smile emoji," Mr. Renzi said mischievously, adding that out of all the political maneuvers he had made over his career, "This operation was the hardest."
Tellingly, Mr. Renzi's once adamant call for the loans from Europe has softened.
Asked whether Italy would take the loan under Mr. Draghi, he said, "Could be. Draghi will decide."
What was important is that Mr. Draghi had arrived. Five Star, already shrinking, risks implosion as its hard-core populists refuse to join Mr. Draghi while others flock to him. Mr. Salvini, whose northern base of businessmen is excited by Mr. Draghi, has to moderate, essentially tossing years of anti-Brussels demagogy down the drain.
Mr. Renzi will not have the leverage to hold the large coalition hostage, and he will have nowhere near as many cabinet slots as Conte offered him. Instead, he gets time and a new political tailwind that might blow him somewhere better.
In the meantime, Mr. Conte gave a news conference last week behind a desk in the middle of a square, looking as if he was soliciting passers-by to sign a petition.
Mr. Renzi said Mr. Conte, like Mr. Salvini before him, had gotten ahead of himself.
"Now," he said. "Game over."
Jason Horowitz is the Rome bureau chief, covering Italy, the Vatican, Greece and other parts of Southern Europe. He previously covered the 2016 presidential campaign, the Obama administration and Congress, with an emphasis on political profiles and features. @jasondhorowitz
:lol: "Smile emoji."
Meanwhile Renzi got what he wanted but I don't see how this improves his position. Also I think Meloni will be able to take full advantage of being the lead opposition to this government and Salvini may regret joining (and flounce out at some time) and the PD are irrelevant and taken for granted by everyone.
But I love that piece.
"We are a failed state, but we dress well."
If there's something Renzi never lacked, it's self-esteem. :lol:
Edit: Now that I've read the article, I think it vastly overplays Renzi's role in the arrival of Draghi. Seems a bit like Renzi is trying to spin this into a "this was my plan all along, I assure you" kind of message. Sure, he toppled Conte (he has experience with that, he already toppled Letta back in the day, and he was from his same party), but that's where his influence in the whole thing ended.
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2021, 09:47:49 AM
If there's something Renzi never lacked, it's self-esteem. :lol:
Edit: Now that I've read the article, I think it vastly overplays Renzi's role in the arrival of Draghi. Seems a bit like Renzi is trying to spin this into a "this was my plan all along, I assure you" kind of message. Sure, he toppled Conte (he has experience with that, he already toppled Letta back in the day, and he was from his same party), but that's where his influence in the whole thing ended.
I just love the elegant knifing of:
"But the most effusive praise of Mr. Renzi may come from Mr. Renzi."
:lol: :ph34r:
Quote"We are a failed state, but we dress well."
Italy's an astonishingly successful state. It keeps going, stays relatively well-off and comfortable despite all of the nonsense.
Italian politics is just a background show for Italian life, its effect in the real life of people is relatively small. :P
Now seriously, the country chugs along fine, but disfunction only keeps growing over time.
The main barometer of how well Italy is doing is, do the trains run on time? :P
Quote from: PJL on February 10, 2021, 01:20:45 PM
The main barometer of how well Italy is doing is, do the trains run on time?
The Italian rail network is surprisingly well run and efficient, actually.
Quote from: PJL on February 10, 2021, 01:20:45 PM
The main barometer of how well Italy is doing is, do the trains run on time? :P
No, they run on hand gestures.
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2021, 01:15:53 PM
Italian politics is just a background show for Italian life, its effect in the real life of people is relatively small. :P
Now seriously, the country chugs along fine, but disfunction only keeps growing over time.
Yeah I mean their entire political party system collapsed following a massive corruption scandal, former PMs had to flee to North African dictatorships with their riches to escape prosecution, the party system had to be re-founded and one of the leaders in re-founding it was Silvio Berlusconi (and it is maybe re-aligning again for President Berlusconi). And yet the country kept on chugging on as you say.
It's remarkable.
I wouldn't count on Berlusconi becoming president.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 11, 2021, 05:04:37 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2021, 01:15:53 PM
Italian politics is just a background show for Italian life, its effect in the real life of people is relatively small. :P
Now seriously, the country chugs along fine, but disfunction only keeps growing over time.
Yeah I mean their entire political party system collapsed following a massive corruption scandal, former PMs had to flee to North African dictatorships with their riches to escape prosecution, the party system had to be re-founded and one of the leaders in re-founding it was Silvio Berlusconi (and it is maybe re-aligning again for President Berlusconi). And yet the country kept on chugging on as you say.
It's remarkable.
North African dictatorship? Now, now... While Ben Ali's Tunisia was hardly a model compared to Western democracies but was definitively very progressive for the area.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 11, 2021, 07:13:59 AM
North African dictatorship? Now, now... While Ben Ali's Tunisia was hardly a model compared to Western democracies but was definitively very progressive for the area.
Anyone who wins >90% of the popular vote is a dictator.
Quote from: The Larch on February 11, 2021, 06:32:17 AM
I wouldn't count on Berlusconi becoming president.
No. But he seems one step closer now - I think he was little bit of a kingmaker here as the first force on the right to break for Draghi. He's like a right-Renzi in terms of being electorally wrecked but still playing the game. I think with more success and, stunningly, humility than Renzi :lol:
QuoteAnyone who wins >90% of the popular vote is a dictator.
Yeah being "progressive" doesn't mean anything about whether you're a dictator or not. There's been loads of "progressive" dictators.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 11, 2021, 08:17:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 11, 2021, 06:32:17 AM
I wouldn't count on Berlusconi becoming president.
No. But he seems one step closer now - I think he was little bit of a kingmaker here as the first force on the right to break for Draghi. He's like a right-Renzi in terms of being electorally wrecked but still playing the game. I think with more success and, stunningly, humility than Renzi :lol:
Thing is, the President of Italy needs to be elected by two-thirds of the joint parliament+senate+regional representatives electoral college, so it needs to be an uncontroversial figure of consensus. Berlusconi will never be that.
Quote from: The Larch on February 11, 2021, 08:32:24 AM
Thing is, the President of Italy needs to be elected by two-thirds of the joint parliament+senate+regional representatives electoral college, so it needs to be an uncontroversial figure of consensus. Berlusconi will never be that.
Fair point - although I wonder if there were an election in the next 4 months. I think that would be under the new smaller Senate/parliament numbers and that Lega+FdI+FI would win handily plus they've been winning quite a lot of regions from the PD in recent years. All of which could make it unpredictable.
As a podcast I listened to earlier in the week put it the overriding objective for Italian politicians right now is to avoid another election because they don't want a repeat of 2018 (but with a right-populist coalition winning) and all that could lead to. But on a practical level the number of seats is being halved so it's in politicians' self-interest right now to make sure there's not an election :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 11, 2021, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 11, 2021, 08:32:24 AM
Thing is, the President of Italy needs to be elected by two-thirds of the joint parliament+senate+regional representatives electoral college, so it needs to be an uncontroversial figure of consensus. Berlusconi will never be that.
Fair point - although I wonder if there were an election in the next 4 months. I think that would be under the new smaller Senate/parliament numbers and that Lega+FdI+FI would win handily plus they've been winning quite a lot of regions from the PD in recent years. All of which could make it unpredictable.
As a podcast I listened to earlier in the week put it the overriding objective for Italian politicians right now is to avoid another election because they don't want a repeat of 2018 (but with a right-populist coalition winning) and all that could lead to. But on a practical level the number of seats is being halved so it's in politicians' self-interest right now to make sure there's not an election :lol:
That's why they turned to Draghi as soon as Conte couldn't form a new government, and (almost) everybody is throwing themselves at supporting Draghi and his new technocratic government. Nobody wants new elections.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 11, 2021, 08:17:39 AM
QuoteAnyone who wins >90% of the popular vote is a dictator.
Yeah being "progressive" doesn't mean anything about whether you're a dictator or not. There's been loads of "progressive" dictators.
Self-styled progressives maybe, but not so many real ones.
Progressive dictators? I guess you are thinking of people like Ataturk.
Yes.
Chavez and Maduro surely fit.
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2021, 11:34:02 AM
Progressive dictators? I guess you are thinking of people like Ataturk.
There's been loads of dictators who are "progressive". The modernising dictator is a trope - it doesn't stop them being a dictator.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 12, 2021, 05:59:07 AM
Chavez and Maduro surely fit.
Results are not that great, with Maduro even worse than Chavez, unlike those previously mentioned.
Draghi has just announced his government, it's a mixture of independent technocrats, who hold the key ministries, and representatives of a broad coalition of 6 parlamentary parties, from 5 Stars and the Democratic Party to Lega and Forza Italia.
I am not well-versed in the problems of Italian state, society or economy, but I hope Draghi - with his huge stature both nationally and internationally - can imprive some things with this unity government.
Still find the cultural difference with politicians getting the vaccine quite interesting - in the US they got it early which would not fly in the UK where politician have to wait their turn. Apparently Italy is the same as the UK - Draghi gave a speech today with some interesting details about how they're going to prioritise age and health risks now (so far the focus has been on health sector workers - from Italian friends there's been frustration at how broadly this has been interpreted as lots of administrators have been getting their vaccines :lol:). But I noticed that he saluted the President who is 79 for waiting his turn "exemplarily".
And for the first time the top two parties in a poll in Italy are Lega and FdI :ph34r: :bleeding:
QuoteAlleged killing of migrant by far-right politician prompts Italy gun control row
Estimated 1.2m Italians who are not in police or the security forces own small guns, according to poll
Angela Giuffrida in Rome
Thu 22 Jul 2021 13.17 BST
A row over privately owned guns has been ignited in Italy after a councillor with the far-right League party allegedly shot dead an immigrant.
Massimo Adriatici, a councillor for security in Voghera, is under house arrest following the shooting outside a bar in the Lombardy town on Tuesday night. Youns El Bossettaoui, a 38-year-old man from Morocco, was shot in the chest and later died in hospital.
Matteo Salvini, the leader of the League and a key partner in Mario Draghi's broad coalition, immediately defended Adriatici, arguing that the councillor, a former police commander and criminal lawyer, had acted in self-defence.
He said in a video posted on social media on Wednesday: "The hypothesis is self-defence. [Adriatici] is a professor of criminal law, a former police officer and criminal lawyer, known and esteemed ... he was a victim of aggression to which he responded accidentally."
In an interview with Agorà, a current affairs show on Rai TV, on Thursday morning, Salvini also defended Adriatici for carrying a gun: "From what has emerged, he was attacked by a criminal and illegal immigrant. Let's wait until all the findings emerge – when someone dies it's always a defeat and a time of mourning, but before judging and condemning we must be cautious."
According to Italian media reports, Adriatici, who was carrying a .22 calibre pistol, claimed he intervened when El Bossettaoui, who had a wife and two children in Morocco, was allegedly disturbing customers at the bar. The two men got into a row and El Bossettaoui allegedly pushed Adriatici. Adriatici claimed a bullet was accidentally fired as he fell to the ground.
Enrico Letta, the leader of the centre-left Democratic party, which is also part of Draghi's coalition, called for a ban on privately owned guns. "A man has died, because of a gun," Letta said. "One thing we must and can do: stop privately owned weapons."
Franco Mirabelli, a Democratic party senator, said he found Salvini's words "chilling". "A man shot and killed another man," he added. "It is a tragedy – before the judgments, grief for the victim should prevail."
Riccardo Magi, the president of the small leftwing party More Europe, said: "Salvini's game is deceptive ... it has given citizens the idea that they have to defend themselves and that there is impunity for shooting."
According to figures from the Switzerland-based Small Arms Survey, cited in La Stampa newspaper, an estimated 1.2 million Italians who are not among the police and security forces own small guns.
As with other western EU countries, there are tough laws governing gun ownership and use in Italy. Owners have to first go through a stringent process to obtain a gun purchasing licence, and once a gun is bought the owner must notify the interior ministry. There are limits on the type and number of firearms an individual can own as well as restrictions on the amount of ammunition they can access. Another special licence is required to carry a gun in public spaces.
Most police and security staff can carry guns. However, their use is only permitted in extreme circumstances, including when acting in self-defence.
The paranoia and victim blaming here is incredible - but par for the course for these types of politicians.
There's a huge difference between "distrubing customers at a bar" and being a "criminal" committing "acts of aggression" - and the "he responded accidentally" isn't an incredibly passive description of a shooting.
A really grim story :(
how do you respond accidently by shooting someone? especially if you were a cop and thus trained?
kept reading. discharged as he fell. was he holding the gun?
It sounds a bit like the "and he accidentally stabbed the victim 25 times" kind of joke.
My assumption is that he threatened the guy with the gun and in a flash of temper pulled the trigger. And now he's busy reframing it to make himself avoid any negative consequences.
Managed to find a thread about Italian politics! I knew there was one somewhere. :lol:
So, political news from Italy. M5S suffers its first proper split, after the long-standing rivalry between Conte and Di Maio came to a boil. Di Maio (former M5S leader and Italian deputy PM) announces he's leaving M5S and forming a new party named "Together for the future". He is to be joined by 35-50 MPs and 15 senators, which will make M5S cease to be the first force in the Italian parliament, status now inherited by the Lega. The whole thing is not expected to affect the current Draghi government, which will still retain a majority, but brings even more uncertainty to future elections.
Nothing is more Italian politics than di Maio and Renzi probably ending up on the same pro-Draghi list/pact at the next election :lol:
Or, from Twitter:
QuoteThe arc of Italian politics is long but it bends towards a dozen vaguely centrist parties on 1% each, led by egomaniacs.
I imagine as the rest of M5S radicalise to draw a distinction between themselves and di Maio's group, it might increase the pressure on Lega to pull out and benefit from being a little more opposition.
Italy is truly a rival of the UK when it comes to squandering a position of advantage and turning it into one of barely keeping ones head above water.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 21, 2022, 05:43:14 PMI imagine as the rest of M5S radicalise to draw a distinction between themselves and di Maio's group
The direction that the rump M5S might take from now on is quite worrying. Di Maio basically called Conte a Putin stooge, and apparently one of the triggers of the split was an attempt by some M5S senators to bring forward a motion for Italy to stop supplying weapons to Ukraine.
Good for Di Maio to split in that case.
Found an article in English on the topic:
QuoteItaly: foreign minister leaves 5-Star to form new group backing PM
Luigi Di Maio's move comes after he accused 5-Star leader Giuseppe Conte of undermining government support for Ukraine
Italy's foreign minister Luigi Di Maio has announced that he is leaving the 5-Star Movement to form a new parliamentary group backing the government of prime minister Mario Draghi.
Di Maio's move comes after he accused 5-Star leader and former prime minister Giuseppe Conte of undermining government efforts to support Ukraine and weakening Rome's standing within the EU.
The split in the 5-Star Movement threatens to bring fresh instability to Draghi's multiparty coalition.
5-Star has become increasingly uneasy about Italy sending weapons to Ukraine and there has been widespread speculation that Conte is considering pulling the movement out of the government in an effort to halt its slide in opinion polls.
The party issued a statement on Tuesday flatly denying this.
"Today's is a difficult decision I never imagined I would have to take ... but today I and lots of other colleagues and friends are leaving the 5-Star Movement," Di Maio, himself a former 5-Star leader, told a news conference.
Di Maio, who has been at odds with Conte for months, did not indicate how many 5-Star lawmakers he would take with him but he said that as a result of the schism the party would no longer be the largest group in parliament.
"From today we begin a new path with people who have decided to look to the future," he said, in an apparent hint about his new parliamentary group's name which according to political sources is likely to be Together for the Future.
If 5-Star does end up pulling out of the government it would not deprive Draghi of his majority, but the European Central Bank head would no longer head a "national unity" coalition as he agreed to do in February last year.
Even assuming Draghi decided to carry on, other parties could follow 5-Star out of the government, which would trigger its collapse.
The 5-Star Movement, which triumphed at the 2018 elections when it took 33% of the vote, is now polling at less than half that level, and is in total disarray before the next election scheduled for early next year.
Di Maio bitterly attacked his former party, calling it "irresponsible" over its position on the war in Ukraine and saying it had "put the government in difficulty just to gain a few points in the polls, without even succeeding".
I'm currently in Italy and the headlines are all variations of "M5S nel caos" :lol:
Quote from: celedhring on June 22, 2022, 04:07:27 AMI'm currently in Italy and the headlines are all variations of "M5S nel caos" :lol:
Well, that's more or less what always seemed to be the M5S' default state. :lol:
Although I wonder how much the Ukraine issue is just a pretext. From Italians I follow it seems like there's been an emerging split between a more "institutional" M5S and the old more chaotic one. Apparently the presidential election was basically a mess for them not being able to work together.
So I wonder if Ukraine just provided di Maio with a more sympathetic ground for doing this, because M5S have been backing weapons supplies - but will now radicalise.
Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 06:33:34 PMItaly is truly a rival of the UK when it comes to squandering a position of advantage and turning it into one of barely keeping ones head above water.
Duncan Weldon had flagged that comparison. In 1990 Italy was basically at the same level as Germany economically, by 2000 they'd fallen behind Germany but were still ahead of the UK, now they're approaching Spain/Malta/Cyprus levels. It's still very rich but relative decline - and like the UK now there was a big issue with productivity :ph34r:
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 22, 2022, 04:32:36 AMAlthough I wonder how much the Ukraine issue is just a pretext. From Italians I follow it seems like there's been an emerging split between a more "institutional" M5S and the old more chaotic one. Apparently the presidential election was basically a mess for them not being able to work together.
So I wonder if Ukraine just provided di Maio with a more sympathetic ground for doing this, because M5S have been backing weapons supplies - but will now radicalise.
That has been mentioned since the beginning, yeah, that the Ukraine thing is just a very convenient excuse for something that was going to happen sooner or later, given that the fracture was seen as eventually inevitable.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 22, 2022, 04:36:11 AMQuote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 06:33:34 PMItaly is truly a rival of the UK when it comes to squandering a position of advantage and turning it into one of barely keeping ones head above water.
Duncan Weldon had flagged that comparison. In 1990 Italy was basically at the same level as Germany economically, by 2000 they'd fallen behind Germany but were still ahead of the UK, now they're approaching Spain/Malta/Cyprus levels. It's still very rich but relative decline - and like the UK now there was a big issue with productivity :ph34r:
Slow, steady decline is part of Italian life since the fall of the Roman Empire. :P
Interesting graph. In which current parlamentary group are the 222 M5S MPs elected in the last general election?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FV2D9HBXwAEJ08y?format=jpg&name=large)
First show of M5S rebelling against the unity government. It has announced it will abstain from a senate vote on a cost of living related measures package, claiming that it does too little and, even if they are still in government, calls for new elections from the right (Salvini & Berlusconi from within the government, FdI from outside of it) are getting stronger.
QuoteItaly's government on the brink as 5-Star threatens to boycott confidence vote
Populist party says it won't back cost of living package and could withdraw from fragile coalition
The Italian government is close to collapse after the 5-Star Movement said it would boycott a crucial confidence vote in parliament, prompting calls for early elections.
Giuseppe Conte, the former prime minister who leads the populist party, said the funds set aside for a cost of living support package were insufficient and that his senators could not support the bill on Thursday.
"The scenario has changed, we need a different phase," he told reporters after failing to reach a compromise during talks with the incumbent prime minister Mario Draghi earlier on Wednesday.
"We are ready to support the government but not to sign a blank bill. Whoever accuses us of irresponsibility needs to look in their own backyard."
Conte has been threatening to pull the 5-Star Movement, which has lost half of its support since emerging as the biggest party in Italy in the 2018 general elections, from Draghi's broad coalition for weeks.
Draghi, the former European Central Bank chief who was brought in to lead Italy out of the coronavirus pandemic and salvage its economy, said on Tuesday that the government could not survive without the 5-Star Movement while stressing that he would not accept ultimatums.
"A government with ultimatums doesn't work, at that point it loses its reason for existing," he added.
Parliamentarians also need to vote on sending more support, including military aid, to Ukraine. The 5-Star Movement has long voiced its opposition to sending arms to the war-torn country.
There have been calls for early elections from coalition and opposition parties in the event of a government collapse.
Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right League, said the "Italian people should have their say", while his far-right counterpart Giorgia Meloni, whose Brothers of Italy party was the only one to stay out of Draghi's coalition, called for immediate elections. Brothers of Italy currently leads in opinion polls.
Enrico Letta, leader of the centre-left Democratic party, said earlier on Wednesday: "If the government falls, we vote."
Italy's next general elections are due to be held next spring. It is unusual for a national vote to take place in the autumn.
The 5-Star Movement has struggled to revive its fortunes under Conte's leadership. The party has lost dozens of parliamentarians and its former leader Luigi Di Maio, the current foreign minister, split from the group last month, taking dozens more with him.
And it seems now that Draghi will resign after M5S no-showed the vote in the Senate, arguing that he can't continue heading the government with the M5S's trust.
It remains to be seen if the President will accept his resignation or not, and what kind of formula will be hammered out to keep the government. New elections will be, I think, the last choice that everyone will want to avoid.
President Mattarella has not accepted Draghi's resignation.
Hopefully the threat of resignation is enough to scare some of the pols back to supporting Super Mario, but I have my doubts.
And it has all gone down the drain.
Draghi went before the senate today for a final outright confidence vote on his government, and both the M5S and the right wing parties in government (Lega and FI) ended up not voting for it (they didn't vote against it either, but simply left and refused to cast a vote). With this lack of support in his government plainly on view, Draghi will now go once again to meet with Mattarella, the Italian President, presumably to offer his final resignation. It is being hypotethized that new elections will take place in late september/early october.
(https://i.redd.it/chxdunzx9xc91.png)
So the right-populists and fascists have like 40% of the vote... :bleeding:
45% if we include Berlusconi :ph34r:
Plus, obviously, whatever Conte's M5S is these days.
Italy also has a pretty bad (in my view) majoritarian system. But FdI, Lega and FI have agreed to split the constituencies to maximise results. Ratio is something like Fratelli with about 100, Lega with 70 and FI with about 40. Whichever of the three gets the most votes gets to nominates PM with the support of the other two.
Italy's electoral system is absolutely terrible. The 2005 reform made by the last Berlusconi government was specifically designed to be a mess (the infamous "Porcellum"), and ended up being declared unconstitutional, as well as its 2015 amendment (not as much because of the reform itself but because of the failure to further reform the Italian Constitution).
They're now running on a law enacted in 2017 which mixes first past the post seats (roughly 1/3) and PR seats (roughly 2/3), with some extra seats for overseas constituencies. This year they'll also implement a reduction in the number of seats in Parliament (from 630 to 400) and Senate (from 315 to 200). At least they got rid of the majority bonus (I think) and the different thresholds for electoral alliances and single parties (I think).
QuoteRussian links to Italian right threaten Meloni's election campaign
Opponents of the right are demanding to know if Vladimir Putin brought down Mario Draghi's government.
After Mario Draghi's coalition government collapsed, plunging Italy into fresh turmoil, an unsettling question is hanging in the air: was the Kremlin involved?
Two incidents involving contact between right-wing party chiefs and Russian diplomats have triggered a round of finger-pointing in Rome as the election campaign gets into gear.
The row threatens to damage the standing of Giorgia Meloni, the leader of the popular far-right Brothers of Italy party, who stands to become prime minister at the head of a new right-wing coalition after the poll on September 25.
At stake more broadly is Italy's international reputation and the question of whether Rome will remain a solid and dependable part of the Western alliance against Vladimir Putin's aggression in Ukraine.
In the first incident, in May a Russian embassy official asked a foreign affairs adviser to Matteo Salvini — Meloni's ally in the far-right League party — if he intended to pull his ministers out of Draghi's coalition, according to La Stampa newspaper on Thursday, which cited intelligence reports.
The second incident centers on Silvio Berlusconi, Italy's former PM and a long-time ally of Putin's. Berlusconi, who leads the center-right Forza Italia party, spoke to the Russian ambassador on the day that he withdrew his backing for Draghi's government, according to reports in La Repubblica on Friday.
Salvini has dismissed the report and Berlusconi is yet to comment. But opponents of the right are kicking up a fuss.
Enrico Letta, leader of the center-left Democratic Party, and former PM Matteo Renzi called for an investigation by the parliamentary intelligence committee. "The election campaign is beginning in the worst possible way," Letta said. "We want to know whether it was Putin who brought down the Draghi government. If that was the case it would be of the utmost gravity."
Lia Quartapelle, foreign affairs spokesman for the Democrats, told POLITICO that the reports were "scandalous" and would not help Meloni's chances of becoming PM. "Allies will be watching with great concern I imagine. If any government spoke like this even to the U.S. embassy in this way it would be a problem, and we are talking about the Russian embassy." Quartapelle said that the reports on Salvini or Berlusconi would not improve Meloni's chance of becoming prime minister, but were damaging for the entire right.
The newspapers' reports reinforce the impression that Italy's right-wingers are too close to Putin.
Both Salvini and Berlusconi have well-established relationships with the Russians. Over the years Salvini has often expressed his admiration for Putin, saying he could be prime minister of Italy, and wore a T-shirt of Putin's face to the European Parliament. Salvini has also spoken out against sending more arms to Ukraine.
Salvini was forced to cancel a "peace mission" to Russia in May after it emerged that his parallel diplomacy effort did not have government authorization, and the Russian embassy had paid for his flight to Moscow.
As for Berlusconi, he was reportedly critical of Draghi's position on Ukraine after the call with the Russian ambassador, who claimed that the invasion was necessary because the risk was that Ukraine would attack Russia.
In his time as prime minister, Berlusconi established a personal rapport as well as a political friendship with Putin based on shared economic interests. His criticism of Putin since the invasion has been muted, only saying that he was disappointed in the Russian leader.
Their ambivalence over Ukraine may appeal to a substantial chunk of voters who are against sending weapons to Kyiv and who regard Russia and Ukraine as equally at fault.
Salvini's political stronghold includes the Italian northern manufacturing power base that does a lot of business with Russia and is being harmed by sanctions.
But the ambiguity is likely to harm the credibility of Salvini and Berlusconi's ally on the right, Meloni, who is leading the polls. She has taken a clearly pro-NATO position that Russia is the aggressor since the beginning of the war, as she attempts to portray herself as a respectable and safe pair of hands.
"If a new Italian government is more sympathetic to Russia, it would be a concern to Italy's allies," historian Margaret MacMillan, professor at Oxford University, told POLITICO, adding that the Americans will likely be watching with alarm. "Italy could be placing itself in the same pro-Russian camp as Hungary and Serbia and become a concern for Germany and France."
Salvini dismissed the reports and the concerns as propaganda from the left. He told MPs in a message: "A desperate and divided left, with some foolish servant in some newsroom, passes their time to look for fascists, Russians and racists which don't exist. The 25th September finally we will have change."
A League spokesman said that the person who spoke to the Russian embassy official, Antonio Capuano, has never been a formal part of the League, although has advised them from time to time.
A spokesman for Berlusconi did not immediately return requests for comment.
I don't want to be conspiracy minded - but literally everything I've read about Italian politics makes me see conspiracies everywhere - but it seems to me that this is helpful for Meloni and the FdI as the main party of the right coalition. She gets to position herself as a strongly pro-Atlanticist and pro-EU on the right which might help increase her support on the mainstream right (despite leading a "post-fascist" party) - and also probably strengthens her hand (if FdI do best) to get a mandate from Mattarella.
Also I'm not totally sold on the line that Lega brought down Draghi to help Putin. Lega also brought down the one man between them and a majority right government - self-interest and Putin's interest were aligned.
Separately and I could betotally wrong, butif they win I suspect they'll focus domestically and in entrenching their position rather than picking fights with western allies - so I expect they'll be more likely to do the bare minimum than actually sabotage like Hungary.
Thread of Meloni basically talking about "great replacement" theories - again too extreme for Le Pen, possibly next PM of Italy:
https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?s=20&t=17UUJgOie_vDRAfkB79rFQ
Apparently if she does become PM she's planning an early summit with Scholz and Macron to show her moderate and pro-EU credentials. As I say I suspect she'll be far less outwardly confrontational with the EU than and other EU leaders than Salvini was at Interior. Instead I suspect she'll follow the Orban model of consolidating power domestically and then milking the EU and using it to advance her agenda with even more brutal "fortress Europe"/Frontex focused policies.
I think one of the most interesting and worrying trends right now is the convergence of far-right forces in different countries on basically a far-right vision of the EU rather than just confrontation. I remember seeing a lot of commentary that the mess of Brexit made it so even the far-right were dropping outright hostility to the EU, which is true. But I think it's equally true that Orban especially has shown that you don't need to leave to deliver your agenda.
You'll see that most of those posts are from a while ago, when the party was at the fringe and they could say and BS that passed by their minds without much worry. Now they've gone into a turbo reputation wash in order to appeal legitimate and mainstream:
QuoteScepticism over Giorgia Meloni's claim 'fascism is history' in Italian far right
Critics say message is part of election game plan and point to recent speech on immigration and homosexuality
A declaration by Giorgia Meloni, who could be Italy's next prime minister, that her far-right party has consigned fascism to history has been greeted with scepticism.
In a video message issued on Wednesday, Meloni, who leads Brothers of Italy, a party with neofascist origins, said the Italian right had "handed fascism over to history for decades now" and "unambiguously condemns the suppression of democracy and the ignominious anti-Jewish laws".
In the video, spoken in English, French and Spanish and directed at the foreign press, she said Brothers of Italy was nowadays more akin to "the British Tories, the US Republicans and the Israeli Likud".
Brothers of Italy leads a coalition that includes Matteo Salvini's far-right League and Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia, which is forecast to win general elections on 25 September.
The video sparked a row with her rival Enrico Letta, the leader of the centre-left Democratic party, who implied her comments were merely cosmetic.
Meloni has worked hard to remould her party, pitching it as a conservative champion of patriotism. In her book, I Am Giorgia, she insisted she did not belong to "the cult of fascism".
However, there are clear signs that Brothers of Italy, a descendant of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), a party set up by a minister in Benito Mussolini's dictatorship, has not completely severed ties with its past.
Meloni joined the youth wing of MSI at the age of 15. Among the first people she met was Marco Marsilio, the current president of the Abruzzo region.
MSI later morphed into the National Alliance, whose youth movement was led by Meloni before the party was dissolved and she went on to found Brothers of Italy.
Brothers of Italy has retained MSI's tricoloured flame in its official logo and its headquarters is at the same address, on Via della Scrofa in central Rome, where MSI set up office in 1946.
Mussolini's granddaughter Rachele, a member of Brothers of Italy, won the most votes in Rome's council elections last October. Enrico Michetti, who was the party's mayoral candidate, said during his campaign that the stiff-armed Roman salute, which has fascist connotations, ought to be revived as it was more hygienic in times of Covid-19.
A few days after the elections, Meloni told Corriere della Sera there were no "nostalgic fascists, racists or antisemites in the Brothers of Italy DNA" and that she had always got rid of "ambiguous people".
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More recently, Meloni, whose motto is "God, family and country", travelled to Marbella where she expressed her hardline views on immigration and homosexuality during an aggressive speech at a rally held by her party's Spanish far-right counterpart Vox.
"The video [on Wednesday] is so different from the speech she gave at Vox," said Luciano Cheles, a professor emeritus of Italian studies at the University of Grenoble. "She's cunning ... obviously she adapts her appearance and attitude to the audience."
Cheles's research has found that fascist imagery was used in posters, brochures and anthems of the National Alliance youth wing and later Brothers of Italy, and that Meloni's slogans frequently echo those of Mussolini.
In July, when Mario Draghi's government collapsed, Meloni took to the stage in Piazza Vittorio, a square in a multicultural area of Rome, and told her supporters: "We've had three different governments, three different majorities [since the March 2018 general elections]. Have any worked? No. History has proved us right."
Cheles said: "In an interview with a fascist journalist five days before his death, Mussolini said: 'History will prove me right ... a young person will rise, a leader who will inevitably agitate the ideas of fascism.' I don't think what Meloni said at Piazza Vittorio was purely accidental. The very phrase is so pompous, but in the far right when you mention 'history' you mean fascism."
Other than Abruzzo, Brothers of Italy has led the Marche region since 2020. On 28 October 2019, Marche's current president, Francesco Acquaroli, attended a commemorative dinner to mark the anniversary of Mussolini's "march on Rome" along with several Brothers of Italy mayors.
Pietro Perini, the son of a second world war resistance fighter and president of a unit of ANPI, the anti-fascism organisation, in the Marche town of Ascoli Piceno, said: "If she really wants to take a distance from fascism, then why did she go to Spain to speak at the Vox rally?
"It's only words, she's just campaigning for the elections," he said. "And after 25 September, I'm pretty sure the Mussolini commemorative dinners will return."
Yeah and I think they will be Janus faced between domestic and foreign audiences (possibly like early Orban, entrenching power at home before confrontations abroad?) - the constant references to how European and Atlanticist they are for example.
Plus if they appear threatening on that front then I think, based on his approach with the M5S/Lega coalition, that Matterella will use his powers to their extent to stop any shift of Italy's position internationally - especially in relation to Europe.
There was a really good piece by Helen Thompson in the New Statesman before Draghi fell, it feels slightly unsustainable that elections in Italy are increasingly (since the Euro crisis) either meaningless or dangerous.
I think under the new electoral system (which combines the worst of FPTP with the worst of PR!) 40% of the seats are FPTP. Projection on the latest polling is a disaster for the left/everyone :bleeding:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fa6enjJXgAABZe4?format=png&name=small)
It's fascinating how bad times push the masses towards voting for the sort of people who take much of the blame and will only make it worse.
Are the dark blue folks compromised by Putin?
Quote from: Jacob on August 26, 2022, 04:29:39 AMAre the dark blue folks compromised by Putin?
Blue is the right-wing coalition. Dark or light is just how strong the prediciton is.
In terms of compromised by Putin it really depends on what we mean by "compromised". That coalition goes from Berlusconi (and can anyone, even Putin, truly say they've compromised Berlusconi - I think he'll just do whatever is in his interest and possibly have compromised you on the way), through Salvini (more compromised) to Meloni and the post-fascist FdI.
In a way I think it's gone the other way - I think Meloni has used support for Ukraine and the EU to make her party more respectable, especially to the Italian elite and President. She's been very vocally pro-Ukraine and reassuring about Italy's international position with the EU and Atlantic alliance. As I say I think it's actually been a way of legitimising a party that is literally descended from the Italian Social Movement (and still has the tricolour flame in their logo) as a normal, mainstream Atlanticist, pro-European force and nothing to worry about.
Having said that I think if there was a "European" move for peace/concern around energy prices I wouldn't be surprised if the FdI joined in as long as it didn't isolate them and Italy in a way that would alarm the President and Italian elite.
Plus my guess - and I could be totally wrong - is that the FdI have learned from the Lega/M5S attempt to form a government when they tried to appoint a Finance Minister who was sceptical of the Euro which was vetoed by the President and ultimately led to the creation of Conte's government as the President wanted a more technocratic leadership that wouldn't threaten Italy's international position, especially with the EU. Given that, my guess (and it is just that) is that the government of the right will focus on domestic issues and not move Italy very far from the European average - at least to begin with. A bit like Orban built a base of support in Hungary but was pretty emollient abroad, before moving to a more confrontational stance once his domestic support was secured.
Why do the Italian cities have so few seats? Is Italy an incredibly rural country or something?
I think it's more the fairly common European thing that the actual "city" is often quite small. So Milan there looks to me like Milan and not the metropolitan city and certainly not the wider metropolitan area. For comparison Milan itself is about 70 square miles and the metropolitan city is almost ten times that size. It only has three seats but look at all the tiny constituencies around it.
And also Italy, again like most European countries, is fairly densely populated with lots of towns etc all through the country. Looking at US states for comparison - Italy is somewhere between Maryland and Delaware, so even rural areas are relatively populated.
Edit: Plus that's only the four biggest cities - not shown are all the other ones: Bologna, Palermo, Florence, Genoa etc.
Ah so the usual political urban rural divide is really just a tiny city center vs everything else? It is just weird seeing the cities being more on the left but representing just a tiny percentage of the population. The overwhelming majority of the city of Milan is aligned with the Sicilian countryside? Crazy.
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2022, 09:00:52 AMAh so the usual political urban rural divide is really just a tiny city center vs everything else? It is just weird seeing the cities being more on the left but representing just a tiny percentage of the population. The overwhelming majority of the city of Milan is aligned with the Sicilian countryside? Crazy.
Plus the hollowing out of traditional European social democratic parties/parties of the left - this is from the election 20 years ago (when they had more constituencies):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/2001_Italian_general_election_-_Vote_Strength.svg/450px-2001_Italian_general_election_-_Vote_Strength.svg.png)
My understanding is that in Italy the South and the North have historically always voted for the right/Christian Democrats - and it's the centre that voted for the left. It got re-jigged about which parties were elected with the collapse of the old party system - and then with Lega, M5S etc.
The slightly amazing thing is that Lega have moved to a point of having pretty decent support in the south given they started as almost racist towards Southern Italians. There's a meme I can't find of Lega's politics (welfare chauvinism, anti-immigration etc) going from Lega Padania to Lega Nord to Lega and in the future to Lega Europa :lol: But in this election with the coalition of the right I'm not sure where their strengths are I'd guess Lega are still stronger in the North? :hmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 26, 2022, 08:55:06 AMI think it's more the fairly common European thing that the actual "city" is often quite small. So Milan there looks to me like Milan and not the metropolitan city and certainly not the wider metropolitan area. For comparison Milan itself is about 70 square miles and the metropolitan city is almost ten times that size. It only has three seats but look at all the tiny constituencies around it.
And also Italy, again like most European countries, is fairly densely populated with lots of towns etc all through the country. Looking at US states for comparison - Italy is somewhere between Maryland and Delaware, so even rural areas are relatively populated.
Edit: Plus that's only the four biggest cities - not shown are all the other ones: Bologna, Palermo, Florence, Genoa etc.
It also has to be taken into account that what is now officially called "Metropolitan city" in Italian official nomenclature corresponds to what in previous regional arrangements were full provinces, so it goes beyond what the city and its environs cover. For instance, the "Metropolitan city of Rome" covers what was formally the "Province of Rome", and includes Rome itself and something like 100 other municipalities.
Quote from: Valmy on August 26, 2022, 09:00:52 AMAh so the usual political urban rural divide is really just a tiny city center vs everything else? It is just weird seeing the cities being more on the left but representing just a tiny percentage of the population. The overwhelming majority of the city of Milan is aligned with the Sicilian countryside? Crazy.
Take into account that the blue colour represents the right wing alliance, which includes several different parties, so in Milan it will be the Lega the one getting the votes, and in Sicily it'll be somebody else like FdI. They are not voting for exactly the same thing.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AMMy understanding is that in Italy the South and the North have historically always voted for the right/Christian Democrats - and it's the centre that voted for the left. It got re-jigged about which parties were elected with the collapse of the old party system - and then with Lega, M5S etc.
Historically the regions where the Italian left was strongest were the Emilia Romagna and Tuscany, which are both very industrial and heavily populated. Both have been continuosly ruled by the left since 1970, when the current Italian regional arrangement started. Lazio is also a bit of a stronghold, but has actually changed hands with the right at several points.
The Italian right is indeed stronger in the North (mostly Lombardy and Veneto, Piedmont is actually a battleground region) and used to be so as well in the South (Sicily has always been won by the right), but in recent years it has a weaker grip. IIRC when M5S started out it actually got its best results in Southern Italy. Who M5S gets replaced by in Southern Italy will be a big factor.
QuoteThe slightly amazing thing is that Lega have moved to a point of having pretty decent support in the south given they started as almost racist towards Southern Italians. There's a meme I can't find of Lega's politics (welfare chauvinism, anti-immigration etc) going from Lega Padania to Lega Nord to Lega and in the future to Lega Europa :lol: But in this election with the coalition of the right I'm not sure where their strengths are I'd guess Lega are still stronger in the North? :hmm:
Even if the Lega got some decent results in Southern Italy, their main strongholds continue to be in the North (it's the largest party in every single Northern Italian region). Their results in the South, even if not dismal, are not enough to change the party's balance and replace their Northern roots, and they're marginal in the larger Southern regions like Campania and Sicily. Where they've managed to establish themselves is in the poorer regions of Central Italy, where they now rule in Umbria, which had been a traditionally left wing stronghold, and are second in the Marche.
Massive short position building up in Italian govt bonds.
I was wondering if Berlusconi would perhaps offer himself (nobly, selflessly) to Lega and FdI as a potential PM. He's done the job before without blowing up Italy's international position so he's not a risk like Salvini or Meloni would be.
And then I see this :lol: :weep: :bleeding:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbHHpXzUYAI_Zj5?format=png&name=small)
On the other hand - looking back at the last 20 years: is that wrong? :hmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 28, 2022, 05:07:25 PMAnd then I see this :lol: :weep: :bleeding:
I'd say it's just because he's the only clear right wing PM of that time, the rest are all either left wingers or technocrats.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 28, 2022, 05:07:25 PMOn the other hand - looking back at the last 20 years: is that wrong? :hmm:
I'd say Berlusconi is overrated, Prodi and Monti underrated, and who the hell are the 4% who picked Renzi.
Seat projections for the lower house:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fb6mAG6XwAAJAnr?format=jpg&name=small)
And Senate:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fb6mkiyWQAAMKS9?format=jpg&name=small)
Just a disaster for the left - well for everyone but the right :bleeding:
I heard that recently Italy as spent around 100 Billion Euros building up it's Winter gas stockpile, in the same period of normal year, that amount would have cost 12 billion Euros!
Meloni keeps mellowing.
QuoteFar-right favourite to be Italy's next PM softens on EU as election looms
Giorgia Meloni once railed against Brussels, but experts suggest likely successor to Mario Draghi has no interest in rocking boat
At a gathering of Europe's far right in February 2020, the leader of the Brothers of Italy, Giorgia Meloni, railed against the "Brussels techno bureaucrats" who she said wanted to impose "the Soviet plan to destroy national and religious identities" – a typically bombastic claim of Eurosceptic nationalists.
Now, on the brink of becoming Italy's first far-right prime minister, Meloni is sounding a rather different tune.
In an opinion article for Il Messaggero newspaper last month, Meloni said she wanted to work "in compliance with European regulations and in agreement with the [European] Commission" to use EU resources to promote Italy's growth and innovation – a line so conventional it could drop into the speech of any aspiring pro-EU technocrat.
Speaking in a video message broadcast in English, French and Spanish, she hit back at the "absurd narrative" her party would jeopardise Italy's access to €191.5bn (£166bn) in EU Covid recovery funds.
Meloni, who has sought to distance the Brothers of Italy from its fascist origins, said her party shared "values and experiences" with British Conservatives, US Republicans and Israel's Likud party.
While Brussels worried over Italy's 2018 election that brought the populist Five Star Movement and Matteo Salvini's hardline League to power, EU officials are less anxious about a Meloni-led rightwing coalition expected to unite her Brothers of Italy with Salvini's party and Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia.
Since that far-right gathering in 2020, Europe's political landscape has been upended by coronavirus that left Italy with the highest death toll of all EU nations. Under the outgoing prime minister, Mario Draghi, Italy secured the largest share of funds from the EU's €750bn Covid recovery programme. Over a six-year period, Rome will get €191.5bn for policies such as bringing ultra-fast broadband to the whole country and funding 265,000 childcare places for children under six.
The anchor of the EU funding is even more important, with Italian growth set to slow sharply in 2023 as high energy prices weigh on the economy. Meanwhile investors are jittery about what Draghi's departure means for the stability of the eurozone's third largest economy.
"Some Italian commentators say that there is no stronger supporter of Draghi's policies right now than Meloni," said Lorenzo Codogno, a former director of the treasury department at Italy's finance ministry. "She has no interest in blowing up the situation right now."
While Meloni has pledged to modify Italy's recovery programme, she is not expected to seek radical changes, which the European Commission has already ruled out. The EU executive is open to modest tinkering to national recovery plans to reflect the new demand to phase out Russian fossil fuels, but has vetoed any root-and-branch renegotiation.
"She has to put her flag on the programme at the end of the day," said Codogno, now a visiting professor at the London School of Economics. "But whether this will really change the substance of the programme, I doubt ... it's in nobody's interest to undermine the possibility of getting European money."
Meloni is expected to appoint a technocrat as finance minister, such as the current incumbent, former central banker Daniele Franco. On foreign policy, she is advised by a veteran insider, the career diplomat and former foreign minister, Giulio Terzi di Sant'Agata. And she is said to be getting counsel from "Super" Mario – Draghi, the epitome of the EU establishment.
"It is fairly well known that there has been a direct line between the two so there is a lot of mentoring going on," said Nathalie Tocci, director of the Institute for International Affairs in Rome. Tocci said Italy's institutions, symbolised by Draghi himself, were "try[ing] to ensure that the Italian ship remains steady despite all of the political turmoil".
With energy bills rocketing, Tocci does not think Meloni has room to express her Eurosceptic nationalism.
"We are basically in the midst of a crisis that she herself recognises does not have a national solution," said Tocci, referring to Meloni's support for EU-wide energy price caps. "Although she is a nationalist, although she is a Eurosceptic, she understands that this is a crisis that needs European solutions."
Meloni, a pro-Nato Atlanticist, has been unequivocal in condemning Russia's invasion and supporting the dispatch of weapons to Ukraine. Her coalition government is not expected to block EU sanctions, despite the presence of Salvini, who once posed in a T-shirt emblazoned with Vladimir Putin's face and recently claimed the restrictive measures against Russia are "bringing Europe and Italy to their knees".
Luigi Scazzieri at the Centre for European Reform points out that the League-Five Star government never vetoed EU sanctions against Russia. He does not think that will change under Italy's likely next government: "In terms of sabotaging western unity ... that's not going to happen.
Some EU supporters are less sanguine about a Meloni government.
"Meloni, just like other far-right populist leaders, has learned from the example of the UK and the chaos that leaving the EU has caused," said Petros Fassoulas, the secretary-general of European Movement International.
"Their intention isn't so much to attack the EU; their intention is to take over from within and transform it into something closer to their ideas – a nightmare for all of us here in Brussels."
He sees conflict between Meloni and the rest of the EU over migration. The Brothers of Italy want the navy to turn away migrant boats. In an EU increasingly pre-occupied by border security, Meloni's faction is far from alone in seeking to prevent asylum seekers reaching Europe's borders.
A government anxious to preserve EU cashflows, while keeping out migrants and asylum seekers is not exceptional in the EU. Meloni is allied to the governing nationalist right in Poland and the far-right Sweden Democrats, who belong to the European Conservatives and Reformists group that she has led since 2020.
The success of the Sweden Democrats, who won second place in last week's elections, making them potential kingmakers in shaping Sweden's government, is another fillip for Europe's nationalist union.
Fassoulas believes the rise of the nationalist Eurosceptic right will be destabilising. "It is easy to deal with one, but when you have two or three illiberal or far-right leaders within the European Council [of EU leaders] the process becomes much more cumbersome."
She's moving so fast towards the center that she might end up being dissed as a communist by former allies. :lol:
On a different note, I recently read somewhere that even if the right wing bloc wins these next elections, the resulting government might very well be short lived, because apparently there are rising internal tensions between, mostly the Lega and FdI, as FdI, who are the rising stars of the coalition, are actually eating away at the Lega's share of the votes in their heartland, so the Lega is feeling somehow threatened and it is well known that they're very experienced coalition-breakers.
You need someone to hold together a fissiparious right-wing coalition and get Lega to serve a full term you say....
(https://www.barrons.com/asset/external-media/afp/AFP6587692541846814556493678340296642731117---1.jpg)
:ph34r:
Edit: Total aside but every recent picture I see of Berlusconi and he looks like Max Headroom. It's like a human has decided to travel the uncanny valley.
The "only" problem for that is that Forza Italia is going to be the junior-est partner in the three-way government coalition, and their coalition arrangement establishes that the party that gets the most votes will be the one to put forward the PM (although that's actually a presidential prerrogative), and it'll be FdI for sure. Polls put FdI in the mid 20s%, Lega in the mid 10s% (down from the high 30s% from a few years ago, most of the FdI growth has been at the expense of, mostly, the Lega, and the M5S to a lesser degree), and Forza Italia barely scratching 10%.
And even the 1st Berlusconi government in the 90s was brought down by the Lega. :ph34r:
I know. I just keep imagining that Berlusconi goes into every meeting with the FdI and Lega pitching himself as the PM.
You need someone who's an acceptable face and known quantity to the world. You want someone who can keep a coalition together etc :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 18, 2022, 01:50:03 PMI know. I just keep imagining that Berlusconi goes into every meeting with the FdI and Lega pitching himself as the PM.
You need someone who's an acceptable face and known quantity to the world. You want someone who can keep a coalition together etc :lol:
He should lobby the Italian president for that. In a "And who are you going to nominate for PM? Meloni? Are you crazy? Salvini? You must be joking. Look, I know what I'm talking about, I've been there before..." kind of way. :P
You guys are making me picture what the Italian version of "Borgen" would be like :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 18, 2022, 01:27:51 PMYou need someone to hold together a fissiparious right-wing coalition and get Lega to serve a full term you say....
(https://www.barrons.com/asset/external-media/afp/AFP6587692541846814556493678340296642731117---1.jpg)
:ph34r:
Edit: Total aside but every recent picture I see of Berlusconi and he looks like Max Headroom. It's like a human has decided to travel the uncanny valley.
that's the puppet from Tussauds right?
Quote from: celedhring on September 18, 2022, 03:15:50 PMYou guys are making me picture what the Italian version of "Borgen" would be like :lol:
You have experience with the country, give it a try. :P
Quote from: celedhring on September 18, 2022, 03:15:50 PMYou guys are making me picture what the Italian version of "Borgen" would be like :lol:
Il Divo:
https://youtu.be/cw-qm-liCPA
An incredible film.
And given it's a film about Italian politics - it has a far better soundtrack than it should :lol:
Edit: I went to see it when it came out in cinemas here and I remember the cinema I went to had a little primer on who was who which was really useful and made the film so much more accessible to me and others. It was a lovely touch.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 18, 2022, 07:49:33 PMEdit: I went to see it when it came out in cinemas here and I remember the cinema I went to had a little primer on who was who which was really useful and made the film so much more accessible to me and others. It was a lovely touch.
That's a good touch, IIRC basically every single character in the film are real historical people, basically the entire Italian political elite of the early 90s is there (and the mafia bosses, of course), and unless you lived that era in Italy and were politically minded I don't think anyone could recognize who is who.
Apparently the elections only cracked 51% turnout at 19h, I guess it's on track to be the lowest participation general elections in Italian history.
Quote from: The Larch on September 25, 2022, 01:12:22 PMApparently the elections only cracked 51% turnout at 19h, I guess it's on track to be the lowest participation general elections in Italian history.
Well you need to go back to the 2008 general election to find a term that doesn't end up with a technocratic government. I can see how that might not inspire democratic participation.
So how long are we stuck with the fascists?
I have heard the reason they won is they're the only opposition party. But still. Dangerous times. Putin sees a light.
Only opposition party is part of it - I think I said they'd be the obvious beneficiaries of another technica government backed by all the other parties. Because that is the obvious result of one party staying out.
The FdI are the least pro-Putin of the right coalition. Which is key. This is the same constellation of forces (Forza, Lega, post-fascists) as governed Italy in the late 90s, most of the 00s and early 10s. They're even elected with, in many respects, similar messaging and a similar constituency (that the opposition to that hasn't found an alternative message in the last thirty years is both an indictment and a big part of why we're here, again).
The question, I suppose, is to what extent will the same forces and same patterns of a Berlisconi government recur, and to what extent will Meloni manage to do something different (and more dangerous).
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 25, 2022, 04:26:46 PMQuote from: The Larch on September 25, 2022, 01:12:22 PMApparently the elections only cracked 51% turnout at 19h, I guess it's on track to be the lowest participation general elections in Italian history.
Well you need to go back to the 2008 general election to find a term that doesn't end up with a technocratic government. I can see how that might not inspire democratic participation.
Turnout has been going down for a while, but it'd still be in the 70s or 80s % for general elections. In 2018 turnout was 73%, and it was already the lowest ever.
Quote from: Josquius on September 25, 2022, 04:29:20 PMI have heard the reason they won is they're the only opposition party. But still. Dangerous times. Putin sees a light.
Being the only true oposition party to the Draghi government did give them a position that allowed them to punch way beyond their weight, yeah. They only got like 4% in the 2018 elections.
Exit poll shows 41-45% for these people:
(https://assets.4cdn.hu/kraken/7ntK4c50NsvO1HUqus-xxl.jpeg)
I guess we should be fortunate that Germany isn't due for another election for a while.
Seats haven't been allocated yet but most results are in, it pays to check the numbers, IMO.
- FdI are the clear winners, with 26% of the vote, a massive jump from their previous 4%.
- PD ended up second with 19%, basically keeping the same result from 2018.
- M5S dropped to third overall with 15%, a massive drop from their previous 32%. The biggest loosers of the election, probably.
- Lega also dropped significantly, receiving almost 9% from their previous 17%. It's obvious that FdI's rise has eaten away from them.
- FI dropped as well, and are down to 8% from their previous 14%.
- The center alliance, a new group including PD splinter Renzi, got almost 8% as well.
In total, the right wing alliance (FdI, Lega, FI, plus a minor irrelevant rump Christian Democrat party [there is always some minor irrelevant party trying to claim the mantle of the defunt Democrazia Cristiana]) got 44% of the vote, while the left wing alliance (PD, minor left wing parties that got small % and the failed Di Maio new party) got 26 %. Without knowing the exact amount of seats each party gets, I'd assume that with the current electoral system in place the right wing alliance should be able to rule by itself relatively comfortably.
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 25, 2022, 08:52:27 PMI guess we should be fortunate that Germany isn't due for another election for a while.
Why? The AfD in Germany is significantly weaker than similar parties in other countries and the CDU is not as populist yet. The next election in Germany is in Lower Saxony in two weeks and polls predict a majority for the center-left Social Democrats and Green Parties.
Quote from: The Larch on September 26, 2022, 09:53:29 AMSeats haven't been allocated yet but most results are in, it pays to check the numbers, IMO.
- FdI are the clear winners, with 26% of the vote, a massive jump from their previous 4%.
- PD ended up second with 19%, basically keeping the same result from 2018.
- M5S dropped to third overall with 15%, a massive drop from their previous 32%. The biggest loosers of the election, probably.
- Lega also dropped significantly, receiving almost 9% from their previous 17%. It's obvious that FdI's rise has eaten away from them.
- FI dropped as well, and are down to 8% from their previous 14%.
- The center alliance, a new group including PD splinter Renzi, got almost 8% as well.
In total, the right wing alliance (FdI, Lega, FI, plus a minor irrelevant rump Christian Democrat party [there is always some minor irrelevant party trying to claim the mantle of the defunt Democrazia Cristiana]) got 44% of the vote, while the left wing alliance (PD, minor left wing parties that got small % and the failed Di Maio new party) got 26 %. Without knowing the exact amount of seats each party gets, I'd assume that with the current electoral system in place the right wing alliance should be able to rule by itself relatively comfortably.
How stable is the alliance do you think?
So is Berlusconi going to be PM again? Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose?
Quote from: Valmy on September 26, 2022, 11:30:44 AMSo is Berlusconi going to be PM again? Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose?
As I understand it - highly unlikely. Berlusconi's party was in third place amongst the right-wing alliance.
Giorgia Meloni is expected to be PM.
To be clear, I had to google to get Meloni's name - I am not an expert in Italian politics.
Yeah I don't know anything, I just saw his face there at the victory party. :lol:
Radical nutters win in Italy. Hopefully not radical enough that this is the last fair election in Italy for awhile.
Quote from: Valmy on September 26, 2022, 11:40:05 AMYeah I don't know anything, I just saw his face there at the victory party. :lol:
Radical nutters win in Italy. Hopefully not radical enough that this is the last fair election in Italy for awhile.
Reading up on it, Meloni's party is euroskeptic and anti-immigrant, but has been firmly in support of Ukraine (unlike her coalition partners), which at least makes me thing they won't just be a Russian shill.
Immigrants and the EU, the causes and solutions to all of Europe's problems.
Quote from: Zanza on September 26, 2022, 10:12:04 AMQuote from: Tonitrus on September 25, 2022, 08:52:27 PMI guess we should be fortunate that Germany isn't due for another election for a while.
Why? The AfD in Germany is significantly weaker than similar parties in other countries and the CDU is not as populist yet. The next election in Germany is in Lower Saxony in two weeks and polls predict a majority for the center-left Social Democrats and Green Parties.
Just a bad joke on historical parallels. If i recall right, Italy went fascist first with Mussolini, then Germany shortly thereafter.
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 26, 2022, 12:26:15 PMQuote from: Zanza on September 26, 2022, 10:12:04 AMQuote from: Tonitrus on September 25, 2022, 08:52:27 PMI guess we should be fortunate that Germany isn't due for another election for a while.
Why? The AfD in Germany is significantly weaker than similar parties in other countries and the CDU is not as populist yet. The next election in Germany is in Lower Saxony in two weeks and polls predict a majority for the center-left Social Democrats and Green Parties.
Just a bad joke on historical parallels. If i recall right, Italy went fascist first with Mussolini, then Germany shortly thereafter.
Your recollection is wrong. There were more then ten years between Mussolini's March on Rome and Hitler becoming German chancellor.
Quote from: Zanza on September 26, 2022, 12:35:10 PMQuote from: Tonitrus on September 26, 2022, 12:26:15 PMQuote from: Zanza on September 26, 2022, 10:12:04 AMQuote from: Tonitrus on September 25, 2022, 08:52:27 PMI guess we should be fortunate that Germany isn't due for another election for a while.
Why? The AfD in Germany is significantly weaker than similar parties in other countries and the CDU is not as populist yet. The next election in Germany is in Lower Saxony in two weeks and polls predict a majority for the center-left Social Democrats and Green Parties.
Just a bad joke on historical parallels. If i recall right, Italy went fascist first with Mussolini, then Germany shortly thereafter.
Your recollection is wrong. There were more then ten years between Mussolini's March on Rome and Hitler becoming German chancellor.
given that this close to a century ago the term 'shortly' is becoming appropriate :p
Hitler's own march shortly after Mussolini's in '23 did not go too well, actually.
Quote from: Gups on September 26, 2022, 11:26:26 AMQuote from: The Larch on September 26, 2022, 09:53:29 AMSeats haven't been allocated yet but most results are in, it pays to check the numbers, IMO.
- FdI are the clear winners, with 26% of the vote, a massive jump from their previous 4%.
- PD ended up second with 19%, basically keeping the same result from 2018.
- M5S dropped to third overall with 15%, a massive drop from their previous 32%. The biggest loosers of the election, probably.
- Lega also dropped significantly, receiving almost 9% from their previous 17%. It's obvious that FdI's rise has eaten away from them.
- FI dropped as well, and are down to 8% from their previous 14%.
- The center alliance, a new group including PD splinter Renzi, got almost 8% as well.
In total, the right wing alliance (FdI, Lega, FI, plus a minor irrelevant rump Christian Democrat party [there is always some minor irrelevant party trying to claim the mantle of the defunt Democrazia Cristiana]) got 44% of the vote, while the left wing alliance (PD, minor left wing parties that got small % and the failed Di Maio new party) got 26 %. Without knowing the exact amount of seats each party gets, I'd assume that with the current electoral system in place the right wing alliance should be able to rule by itself relatively comfortably.
How stable is the alliance do you think?
It's Italy, so stability can never be taken for granted in a government coalition, but in recent history the right has been a bit better at sticking together than the left. It will depend on how the parties get along, mostly FdI and Lega, which AFAIK have already some brewing tension between them, but I think that the seat distribution with the current electoral system will make any potential alternative highly unlikely.
Another potential issue are FdI's growing pains. It has to be remembered that they were, until very recently, a fringe party. How they go from that to ruling party is yet to be seen.
In terms of "winners and losers", I'd say there's only a clear winner, and that's FdI and Meloni, who we can assume that will now be in charge of the new government, barring any possible shenanigans by Mattarella, who is the one actually in charge of picking the PM. Not picking Meloni, as unpleasant as it might be, could cause a constitutional crisis.
Losers there are plenty... Letta (PD) took all the wrong decisions during the campaign (failed to keep Renzi and other moderates from splitting, refused a M5S electoral alliance that could have been successful), and has now resigned. Di Maio (ex M5S) failed spectacularely and is now out of the picture for the time being, as he didn't even manage to win his own seat. Conte (M5S) has taken the party from being in government for the first time and being the most voted party in the country to a split, making the government fall and provoking the elections, then a lacklustre 3rd spot and, more or less, irrelevance in the current parlamentary arrangement. Even Salvini (Lega) could be said to be a loser as well, as after getting the best historical results for the Lega in 2018, becoming the foremost party of the right in the country, has now swiftly plumetted back and must to accept a junior role to FdI in their coalition.
Funny thing is, at least in term of voting % (it remains to be seen how that translates to MPs), theoretically a PD(+smaller allied parties)+M5S+"Moderates" has a higher % of votes than the winning coalition, so their domination is not as absolute as it might seem at first. Then again, it's virtually impossible to unite those parties together.
Video going around from Meloni, I htink in her victory speech, going on about "wokeism" (didn't use that word, but clearly what she was describing) and blaming it all on unnamed "financial speculators".
I think I've heard this speech before... :Joos
Funny thing is, of course, that Italy is possible the less "woke" country you can imagine in the west.
Quote from: Barrister on September 26, 2022, 01:25:32 PMVideo going around from Meloni, I htink in her victory speech, going on about "wokeism" (didn't use that word, but clearly what she was describing) and blaming it all on unnamed "financial speculators".
I think I've heard this speech before... :Joos
As I understand it, she's also on record saying "we are all the heirs of Mussolini".
Quote from: The Larch on September 26, 2022, 09:53:29 AM26% of the vote, a massive jump from their previous 4%.
That typically doesn't end well.
Quote from: Maladict on September 26, 2022, 02:01:11 PMQuote from: The Larch on September 26, 2022, 09:53:29 AM26% of the vote, a massive jump from their previous 4%.
That typically doesn't end well.
Yeah, that's why I said that FdI's growing pains might also be a factor. I have no idea on how well they'll be able to fill their share of ministerial positions or other high ranking officers. Besides Meloni herself I have no idea who are the party's big wigs, and given their previous fringe status it's not as if they have much experience at being at the top.
Quote from: Barrister on September 26, 2022, 01:25:32 PMVideo going around from Meloni, I htink in her victory speech, going on about "wokeism" (didn't use that word, but clearly what she was describing) and blaming it all on unnamed "financial speculators".
I think I've heard this speech before... :Joos
OK, so this speech is both better and worse than I thought.
Better because it's old, going back to 2019.
Worse, because "Financial speculators" is a term ripped right from Mussolini's mouth.
They hate financial speculation? So they hate bitcoin?
Quote from: Valmy on September 26, 2022, 07:57:59 PMThey hate financial speculation? So they hate bitcoin?
They hate paying off their debt.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2022, 11:34:50 PMQuote from: Valmy on September 26, 2022, 07:57:59 PMThey hate financial speculation? So they hate bitcoin?
They hate paying off their debt.
It's a code-word for Jews. Rothchilds and all that.
Today we say "globalists"
Cosmopolitan elites still has some currency as well, it seems.
Wasn't "rootless cosmopolitan" the Soviet antisemitic pejorative of choice back in the day? I believe the current MAGA crowd prefer "globalist elite" or something to that effect.
Quote from: Barrister on September 27, 2022, 01:18:12 PMIt's a code-word for Jews. Rothchilds and all that.
No shit Sherlock.
Italy is a highly indebted country dependent on the kindness of the ECB. To cast their self-induced debt service issues as the fault of shiftless Jewish money lenders is not that much of a stretch.
It seems that a possible new casualty of the elections results will be Salvini himself, as Lega's big wigs blame him squarely for the party's dramatic drop in voting. Apparently he is also being spurned in coalition talks, as he is dead set in recovering the Interior ministry from which he created alll kind of trouble back in the day, but now FdI think it's too important a ministry for a party with their vote share.
If he's finally dropped, this could also mean an end to the Lega's attempt to go national, as Salvini was its strongest proponent, but has not been backed by results in these elections, in which they've retreated to their northern strongholds, in some of which they've also lost ground to FdI.
So, today was the first day of the legislature in Italy, and shenanigans already took place in the Senate, as Forza Italia abstained from voting the proposed Senate president candidate from FdI (Inazio Larussa, former minister in the Berlusconi governments of the early 00s and one of FdI's founders). When Larussa went to speak with Berlusconi (who is a senator) about why he didn't vote in the first round they apparently had a brief badmouthing. After several innefectual voting rounds, Larussa ended out being selected without FI's votes, but with some opposition votes in his favour to break out the stalemate.
There's also trouble with the forming of the government, as Berlusconi and Meloni can't seem to agree about which and how many FI ministers there should be.
So, all in all, the government coalition hasn't really started out well.
well, it's still Italy after all. Wouldn't be normal if everything went smooth.
Quote from: The Larch on October 13, 2022, 03:42:51 PMSo, today was the first day of the legislature in Italy, and shenanigans already took place in the Senate, as Forza Italia abstained from voting the proposed Senate president candidate from FdI (Inazio Larussa, former minister in the Berlusconi governments of the early 00s and one of FdI's founders). When Larussa went to speak with Berlusconi (who is a senator) about why he didn't vote in the first round they apparently had a brief badmouthing. After several innefectual voting rounds, Larussa ended out being selected without FI's votes, but with some opposition votes in his favour to break out the stalemate.
And, which is attracting attention overseas at least, a collector of fascist memorabilia (middle name Benito), including a Mussolini bust. His dad was also a fascist party member and by the looks of it an early member of MSI.
But as you say already a minister because this is fundamentally the same coalition as Berlusconi's - it's just the balance of power is a little bit different.
I think it makes sense for Berlusconi and Meloni to have a little bit of a difficulty. From the outside it looks like she's a far canny operator than Salvini, so Berlusconi's probably making it clear he's still an operator too :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 13, 2022, 04:19:45 PMQuote from: The Larch on October 13, 2022, 03:42:51 PMSo, today was the first day of the legislature in Italy, and shenanigans already took place in the Senate, as Forza Italia abstained from voting the proposed Senate president candidate from FdI (Inazio Larussa, former minister in the Berlusconi governments of the early 00s and one of FdI's founders). When Larussa went to speak with Berlusconi (who is a senator) about why he didn't vote in the first round they apparently had a brief badmouthing. After several innefectual voting rounds, Larussa ended out being selected without FI's votes, but with some opposition votes in his favour to break out the stalemate.
And, which is attracting attention overseas at least, a collector of fascist memorabilia (middle name Benito), including a Mussolini bust. His dad was also a fascist party member and by the looks of it an early member of MSI.
But as you say already a minister because this is fundamentally the same coalition as Berlusconi's - it's just the balance of power is a little bit different.
I think it makes sense for Berlusconi and Meloni to have a little bit of a difficulty. From the outside it looks like she's a far canny operator than Salvini, so Berlusconi's probably making it clear he's still an operator too :lol:
Absolutely nobody in Italy will bat an eyelid because Larussa happens to own fascist memorabilia. He's a long time far right politician that happened to be the last president of Alleanza Nazionale, the post-fascist party of the first Berlusconi governments that ended up merging into Forza Italia, and his own father was a member of the Fascist party before the war, and one of the earliest members of the MSI after it.
That this is what is making headlines abroad is a very reductionist topic.
Quote from: The Larch on October 13, 2022, 04:32:18 PMAbsolutely nobody in Italy will bat an eyelid because Larussa happens to own fascist memorabilia. He's a long time far right politician that happened to be the last president of Alleanza Nazionale, the post-fascist party of the first Berlusconi governments that ended up merging into Forza Italia, and his own father was a member of the Fascist party before the war, and one of the earliest members of the MSI after it.
That this is what is making headlines abroad is a very reductionist topic.
I don't know if I agree. That strand of politics has been mainstreamed/normalised in Italy - primarily by Berlusconi. Although from my understanding Meloni is a bit more of call back to the MSI roots, than Fini's Alleanza Nazionale and that she in part disagreed with Fini's "liberalisation".
But I don't think that has happened internationally. While Italians may be over it I think the exact nature of a "post-fascist" party in government is important and something the rest of the world will be interested in.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 13, 2022, 04:38:45 PMQuote from: The Larch on October 13, 2022, 04:32:18 PMAbsolutely nobody in Italy will bat an eyelid because Larussa happens to own fascist memorabilia. He's a long time far right politician that happened to be the last president of Alleanza Nazionale, the post-fascist party of the first Berlusconi governments that ended up merging into Forza Italia, and his own father was a member of the Fascist party before the war, and one of the earliest members of the MSI after it.
That this is what is making headlines abroad is a very reductionist topic.
I don't know if I agree. That strand of politics has been mainstreamed/normalised in Italy - primarily by Berlusconi. Although from my understanding Meloni is a bit more of call back to the MSI roots, than Fini's Alleanza Nazionale and that she in part disagreed with Fini's "liberalisation".
But I don't think that has happened internationally. While Italians may be over it I think the exact nature of a "post-fascist" party in government is important and something the rest of the world will be interested in.
It was kind of normalised already by the time Berlusconi appeared on the political stage. Fini took the MSI (which had been participating in Italian politics since 1948, and actually peaked in the 70s) in the early 90s and started shedding its more overtly Fascist aspects, as well as attracting lots of former DC politicians and voters to end up morphing it into Alleanza Nazionale, which had much better election results that the MSI ever had. We can argue about what we mean by normalisation, though.
The thing is, post-fascists have already been part of Italian governments in the past, and nobody internationally seemed particulary bothered by that (in part because of Fini's efforts to make AN be as palatable as possible). As mentioned, Fini and AN were part of several Berlusconi-led governments in the 00s, and this particular guy Larussa was already an important figure by then, to the point of being a minister in several of these governments.
Quote from: The Larch on October 14, 2022, 05:44:50 AMIt was kind of normalised already by the time Berlusconi appeared on the political stage. Fini took the MSI (which had been participating in Italian politics since 1948, and actually peaked in the 70s) in the early 90s and started shedding its more overtly Fascist aspects, as well as attracting lots of former DC politicians and voters to end up morphing it into Alleanza Nazionale, which had much better election results that the MSI ever had. We can argue about what we mean by normalisation, though.
Yeah - and I suppose whether there needs to be a de-normalisation now with FdI.
Cooperating or relying on MSI for supply and confidence caused riots and something like a "republican front" which forced new elections on DC in the 60s, because the party was explicitly (I think one of their leaders said this) "a fascist party for a democratic society". The leadership in those years were the dead enders who wentt to the Salo Republic and - from what I understand - that was almost a requirement in the early days. So that party existed and may have been partially normalised but are now, maybe, relevant again?
Fini transforms it in the Alleanza Nazionale and more explicitly distances themselves from fascism, racism etc. My understanding, which is why I think it's worth thinking about whether we should "de-normalise" this, is that Meloni and the FdI was in part a rejection of Fini. It was about saying that the MSI was the right tradition that they came from not AN. She also says that obviously they're not racists and that fascism is just a historical question etc. As I say from what I understand they are very mainstreamed and normalised in Italy, but it seems to me that you can't simultaneously have a line that "we're not fascists or racist" and simultaneously locate your tradition and identify your party's heroic moment at a point when they were explicitly fascist.
Not sure if I'm making sense because I'm struggling to think how I say it. For an Italian comparison - much as I love him and Eurocommunism - I think it's a bit like the criticism of Berlinguer and that moment of breaking with the USSR and moving to Eurocommunism but criticising the USSR only for its degenerative Stalinism phase/legacy and, from what I understand, Lenin was still untouchable in PCI theory (although not really a practical model).
QuoteThe thing is, post-fascists have already been part of Italian governments in the past, and nobody internationally seemed particulary bothered by that (in part because of Fini's efforts to make AN be as palatable as possible). As mentioned, Fini and AN were part of several Berlusconi-led governments in the 00s, and this particular guy Larussa was already an important figure by then, to the point of being a minister in several of these governments.
Yeah, but also they've not led them.
There's going to be a lot more coverage of them leading the right than when they were a junior coalition partner winning 15% of the vote. I'm not sure why but I think there was far more interest and coverage internationally of Lega Nord in Berlusconi's government - perhaps because of the separatist element? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like I read/heard a lot about Lega Nord and AN were almost an aside?
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 14, 2022, 07:20:12 AMCooperating or relying on MSI for supply and confidence caused riots and something like a "republican front" which forced new elections on DC in the 60s, because the party was explicitly (I think one of their leaders said this) "a fascist party for a democratic society".
MSI relevance ebbed and flowed in the post war era. It started out being a relatively fringe party, but slowly gained relevance during the 50s to the point, as you say, of being the only support of the (extremely short lived) DC Tambroni cabinet, which actually collapsed because of it (as you say, riots took place nation wide because of the MSI's support for the government).
That was the culmination and ultimate failure of the MSI's "inserimento" strategy, which had as its goal to recover political power (they had already been cooperating in some local and regional arenas with the DC with the objective of keeping the Communist Party out of power, that was I think their first big foray into national politics). When the Tambroni cabinet collapsed the center left eventually won the elections shortly afterwards and the MSI spiralled downwards in support until they recovered in the 70s.
QuoteThe leadership in those years were the dead enders who wentt to the Salo Republic and - from what I understand - that was almost a requirement in the early days.
Don't know about that, the MSI leader of that time, Michelini, was not part of the Salò Republic (others that followed him, mainly Giorgio Almirante, were indeed former Salò-ers).
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 14, 2022, 07:20:12 AMFini transforms it in the Alleanza Nazionale and more explicitly distances themselves from fascism, racism etc. My understanding, which is why I think it's worth thinking about whether we should "de-normalise" this, is that Meloni and the FdI was in part a rejection of Fini. It was about saying that the MSI was the right tradition that they came from not AN.
AFAIK (FdI came into existance long after my time in the country), FdI were created not as a reaction against Fini turning the MSI into AN, but as a reaction to AN merging into Forza Italia, as they felt it deprived them of a proper voice. For what I've read many of the initial FdI founders were former AN-ers (like Larussa). Meloni at that time was a relatively minor figure, although she had been a junior minister in one of the last Berlusconi cabinets, IIRC.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 14, 2022, 07:20:12 AMYeah, but also they've not led them.
Agreed, that's the main difference, that now they're coalition leaders rather than junior partners.
QuoteThere's going to be a lot more coverage of them leading the right than when they were a junior coalition partner winning 15% of the vote. I'm not sure why but I think there was far more interest and coverage internationally of Lega Nord in Berlusconi's government - perhaps because of the separatist element? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like I read/heard a lot about Lega Nord and AN were almost an aside?
The reason is twofold, I think. On the one hand, as was previously mentioned, AN had been thoroughly sanitized of its most strident fascist trappings, and was a relatively quiet partner. On the other hand, the Lega were two things, one, former separatists, as well as a relatively new flavour in Italian politics, and two, extremely strident in their antics.
Apparently the relations between FdI and FI are getting worse and worse by the moment, now with audios of Berlusconi being leaked in which he praises Putin, badmouthes Zelensky, justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine and claims that the West has no true leaders at the moment. Meloni has stated that she wants a government with no dissent on this topic.
So, maybe having an excentric 86 y.o. at the head of your party is not a great idea.
Also - I hold no truck with Meloni - but hard to see the stuff Berlusconi's said about Meloni ("patronising" etc) as anything but an old-fashioned sexist.
Especially as from what I understand the root of the issue is that she won't let FI get the Ministry of Justice which is, inevitably, a priority for Berlusconi.
There's apparently a non trivial chance of FI splitting over this in two groups, an anti-Berlusconi one that would join the govenrment and a pro-Berlusconi one that would be kept out of it.
So apparently Meloni has stated that Italy is a firm supporter of NATO, and if Berlusconi doesn't like it he won't be part of the government - even if it means not forming a government.
Quote from: Jacob on October 19, 2022, 06:49:22 PMSo apparently Meloni has stated that Italy is a firm supporter of NATO, and if Berlusconi doesn't like it he won't be part of the government - even if it means not forming a government.
Yeah her and the FdI are probably the most pro-NATO/Atlanticist part of the right coalition.
In part I think it's historical - my understanding is that MSI/post-fascists in Italy were always very Atlanticist because anti-Communism. But also, as I say, I think her strategy is going to be the early Orban playbook - don't alarm Italy's international partners, but ramp up the racism and tools of authoritarianism (eg move to a presidential system).
So, the Meloni government has finally been formed and confirmed by Parliament. All the big, outward-looking jobs seem to have been taken by very orthodox politicians, while the firebrands seem to have been placed in more internal-facing positions. Thus, I wouldn't expect this particular government to create headaches internationally, but might create many for the Italians themselves.
In her acceptance speech Meloni has confirmed Italy's stalwart support for the EU, NATO and Ukraine, as well as reneging once again from fascism to the point of claiming that she personally never had any sympathy for fascism (doubtful for someone who at 15 joined the youth wing of the MSI, but whatever). She has, as well, claimed that they won't change Italy's abortion law, which was a big concern with this government. We can expect the usual hardline approach to inmigration that the League already championed during their time in government. A tougher approach to welfare is also expected, as well as some kind of pro-natalist campaign. Their main objective, and one I doubt they'll achieve, will be trying to move Italy to a more presidentialist model.
In the final horse trading for cabinet positions Berlusconi seems to have lost the struggle with Meloni, as it'll be FdI the ones that will keep the Justice portfolio. Both FI and Lega wil have one VP each, positions that will be taken by former EU commissioner Antonio Tajani from FI (who will also be foreign affairs minister) and by Salvini (also minister for infrastructure, a much more minor position than the Interior ministry that he ambitioned but was finally kept away from).
Besides a sprinkling of ideological name changes for the ministries (Education becomes Education & Merit, Ecological Transition becomes Environment & Energy Security, Agriculture becomes Agriculture & Food Sovereignty, Economical Development becomes Business & Made in Italy, and the departments for Family and Equal Opportunities get merged into Family, Natality & Equal Opportunities), the most controversial figure appointed to the cabinet seems to be one of the Ministers without portfolio, Eugenia Maria Roccella. She will head the aforementioned Ministry of Family, Natality & Equal Opportunities. Mrs. Roccella is the daughter of one of the founders of the Italian Radical Party and his feminist painter wife, and was a feminist activist back in the 70s, campaigning and authoring a book on abortion rights. She then left politics and reappeared in the 90s, reneging from her Radical past, and having become a champion for the traditional, catholic family, to the point of being one of the promoters of the "Family Day", an annual demonstration of catholic organisations against LGBTQ rights. Berlusconi recruited her into FI in 2008 and she held a couple of lower profile positions in welfare and social affairs. Since then she jumped into a series of splinter right wing parties until arriving to FdI this year. She is against abortion, IV fertilization, surrogacy, LGBTQ rights in general and same-sex unions in particular, and euthanasia. A very real target for her might be bringing down Italy's 2016 law allowing same sex unions, which I think would make Italy the first country in the world to backtrack on that.
QuoteA very real target for her might be bringing down Italy's 2016 law allowing same sex unions, which I think would make Italy the first country in the world to backtrack on that.
I am glad Italy can test that out for the United States so we have a model for when we do the same :bleeding:
Quote from: Valmy on October 25, 2022, 01:52:21 PMQuoteA very real target for her might be bringing down Italy's 2016 law allowing same sex unions, which I think would make Italy the first country in the world to backtrack on that.
I am glad Italy can test that out for the United States so we have a model for when we do even worse :bleeding:
Fixed! See Berlusconi vs Trump. :P
Those department name changes :lol: :bleeding:
So, as expected, Italy are at it again messing with NGO rescue ships, which has created the first conflict with another EU country, this time with France.
QuoteItaly stops dozens of asylum seekers on NGO ship from coming ashore
Children and the sick were allowed off when boat run by German organisation SOS Humanity docked in Sicily
In the first test of its immigration policy, Italy's new far-right government has prevented 35 asylum seekers from disembarking from their boat, claiming they did not qualify for asylum.
On Saturday night, Rome allowed the ship Humanity 1, run by the German search-and-rescue organisation SOS Humanity and carrying 179 people, to enter the port of Catania, in Sicily, and begin disembarking only children and sick or "vulnerable" people.
After an onboard medical inspection, about 144 passengers were moved to a reception centre on the island, while the rest were left on the ship and are likely to be pushed back into international waters.
Most left Libya on small boats, often facing torture and abuses, and they are all seeking a better life in Europe.
"Right now, in the port of Catania there is a selective disembarkation under way," tweeted Italy's only black legislator in the lower chamber, Aboubakar Soumahoro, who met Humanity 1 at the Catania port. "Worn bodies of castaways already exhausted by cold, fatigue, trauma and torture are considered objects by Italy's new prime minister, Giorgia Meloni."
Italy's move comes as no surprise. Meloni, who leads Brothers of Italy, a party with neo-fascist origins, and who once said Italy should "repatriate migrants back to their countries and then sink the boats that rescued them", has promised to introduce hardline measures to block the arrival of asylum seekers from north Africa.
Italy's new interior minister, Matteo Piantedosi, insists that countries whose flag the NGO-run ships fly must take the refugees and migrants instead.
SOS Humanity, which operates the Humanity 1, challenged Italy's decision, arguing that all the ship's passengers were rescued at sea, and that alone qualified them for a safe port under international law.
Wasil Schauseil, a spokesperson for the NGO, said the group's doctor was asked by the Italian authorities to make a selection of those in a bad medical condition. "Our doctor replied [that] everyone is in a vulnerable situation, so she would not make the selection," said Schauseil.
Two Italian physicians eventually boarded the ship and conducted examinations to determine which people had medical conditions that made them vulnerable.
"The doctors declared 36 people not in an emergency. After receiving the news, one person collapsed and lost consciousness and had to be taken by an ambulance," Schauseil said.
"That is why 35 people are onboard. You can imagine the condition of the people. It is very devastating."
Three other ships carrying 900 more rescued asylum seekers remained at sea, two in Italian waters and one in international waters, while their requests for a safe port have gone unanswered despite "critical" conditions onboard.
The NGOs reported people sleeping on floors and decks, the spread of fever-inducing infections and scabies, and food and medical supplies nearing depletion. Some have been on the ships for more than two weeks.
The Norway-flagged Geo Barents, carrying 572 people, and the German-run Rise Above, carrying 93, entered Italian waters east of Sicily over the weekend to seek protection from storm-swollen seas, while the Ocean Viking, operated by the European search-and-rescue organisation SOS Mediteranee, with 234 onboard, remained in international waters south of the strait of Messina.
On Sunday, Italy ordered the Humanity 1 to leave the port of Catania.However, its captain refused to comply "until all survivors rescued from distress at sea have been disembarked", said SOS Humanity. The vessel remained moored at the port.
"Everyone has a right to disembark, and we expect everyone can disembark,'' Schauseil said. "We do not think this is valid under international law."
According to the NGOs, Italy's move is in breach of international law on rescue at sea, according to which anyone in danger at sea must be rescued and that the rescue can be considered concluded only with disembarkation in the nearest safe port.
On the other hand, the Italian government is attempting to apply a singular interpretation of the EU Dublin Regulation, which provides that asylum seekers have to remain in the first European country they enter.
According to Piantedosi, when the asylum seekers set foot on the Humanity 1 rescue ship, flying the German flag, they actually set foot in Germany and consequently Berlin will have to take care of them.
Italy's new government's first test on migration policy is reminiscent of the standoffs orchestrated by former interior minister Matteo Salvini, now Meloni's infrastructure minister in charge of ports, during his brief 2018-19 stint as interior minister.
Salvini is currently facing charges for kidnapping asylum seekers in a case in Palermo after he prevented, in August 2019, 147 people on the NGO ship Open Arms from disembarking.
Although he could face up to 15 years in jail, Salvini said he would continue to "defend Italy's borders". In a Facebook video, Salvini repeated his allegations that the presence of the humanitarian boats encouraged smugglers.
The humanitarian-run boats which are being denied a safe port, account only for 15% of all arrivals in the country.
Thousands of asylum seekers have in fact reached Italian shores over the last week, either on their own steam in fishing boats or after being rescued at sea by Italian authorities.
QuoteItaly's migration policy is in breach of international law, say legal experts
Italy's new far-right government has enacted its controversial new anti-migration plan, which provides for the pushback of mostly male asylum seekers of adult age rescued in the central Mediterranean whom Rome does not deem qualified for international protection.
The move has sparked a row in the country and has provoked the protests of jurists, lawyers and charities who consider it a breach of international law on rescue at sea.
(...)
Italy's migration policy is reminiscent of the standoffs orchestrated by the former interior minister Matteo Salvini, now Meloni's infrastructure minister, during his stint as interior minister in 2018-19.
However, while Salvini closed the ports to NGOs, often forcing boats to remain several miles from the coast, the strategy of the Meloni government has the aim, on one hand, to please the EU by providing aid to the most vulnerable and, on the other, of blocking people they do not consider qualified for international protection, pleasing a part of their constituency who voted for them.
Magistratura Democratica, an independent Italian association made up of judges and prosecutors, said in a statement that Italy's move was in breach of international law and asked the government for the "immediate disembarkation of all the people".
"The survivors are in Italian territory and within its jurisdiction," said Omer Shatz, a lecturer in international law at Sciences Po and legal director at Front-Lex, an organisation challenging EU migration policies. "Preventing disembarkation, let alone expulsion, of those onboard, would constitute a grave breach of Italy's obligations under customary and treaty human rights, refugee and maritime law."
Italy ordered Humanity 1 to leave the port of Catania on Sunday but the captain refused to comply until all survivors had disembarked.
"We supported the captain's decision," said Alessandro Gamberini, a lawyer for SOS Humanity. "If he leaves the port, he will be the one to break international maritime rescue laws."
The Italian government is attempting to apply an interpretation of the EU's Dublin regulation, which stipulates that asylum seekers have to remain in the first European country they enter.
Piantedosi maintains that when the asylum seekers set foot on the German-flagged Humanity 1, they set foot in Germany and, consequently, Berlin would have to take care of them. The Italian interior ministry has defined NGO ships as islands under the jurisdiction of the flag countries.
Fulvio Vassallo Paleologo, a former professor of asylum law at the University of Palermo, said the law did not work that way. "Once a ship enters the port, both the vessel and the people onboard are subject to the jurisdiction of the coastal state. In theory, their interpretation would make sense if the boats were in international waters and if the flag states agree with this choice. But that's not the case."
"Italy exercised effective control and its state jurisdiction over the survivors based on its own actions," Shatz said. "Once Italy invited the vessel to dock at its port, it cannot discriminate between the survivors, who are all subject to its jurisdiction."
Some legal experts have suggested Italy's plan could rebound on Rome and that letting only some of the migrants land while pushing back others could be prosecuted.
Salvini is facing charges for kidnapping asylum seekers when, as interior minister in August 2019, he prevented 147 people onboard the NGO ship Open Arms from disembarking. Piantedosi was his chief of staff and was investigated over the incident initially before charges were dropped.
Salvini has maintained he was protecting the country and alleged the presence of the humanitarian boats encouraged smugglers.
According to official statistics, the humanitarian-run boats account for only 15% of all such arrivals in the country, with the remainder reaching Italian shores on their own in fishing boats.
QuotePeople rescued in Italian waters spark row between Italy and France
French government calls Rome's refusal to let boat carrying 234 asylum seekers dock 'unacceptable'
The fate of hundreds of people rescued in the central Mediterranean by a charity vessel has sparked a diplomatic row between Italy and France, with the French government calling it "unacceptable" that Rome has refused to allow the ship, carrying 234 asylum seekers, to dock in an Italian port.
On Tuesday, the Ocean Viking rescue boat, operated by the European charity SOS Méditerranée under a Norwegian flag, began sailing towards France after Italy's new far-right government refused to give it a safe port for more than two weeks.
The French government spokesperson, Olivier Véran, told FranceInfo on Wednesday: "The boat is currently in Italian territorial waters. There are extremely clear European rules which have been accepted by the Italians who are, in fact, the first beneficiary of a European financial solidarity mechanism."
Véran added that the Italian government's declarations were "unacceptable", as was its refusal to allow the boat to dock. "We still have a few hours of discussions and, in any case, we are still at that stage. Obviously no one will let this boat run any risk, especially for the people on board," he added. "We are following the situation minute by minute."
(...)
On Tuesday, after unsuccessfully waiting for permission to dock in Italy since late October, Ocean Viking appealed to France, requesting authorisation to disembark its passengers.
Meloini said on Wednesday: "The people aboard the NGO vessels are migrants, not shipwrecked. We did not ask for the disembarkation of all the people aboard the vessels. That was the doctors' decision after a second inspection on board, and we found that decision bizarre."
Sophie Beau, the director general of SOS Méditerranée, said: "The situation aboard the Ocean Viking has reached a critical stage. We are now confronted with very serious consequences including the risk of loss of human life ... after more than two weeks of being blocked at sea."
The Ocean Viking is now sailing toward France and should reach international waters off the French Mediterranean island of Corsica by Thursday.
Gilles Simeoni, the president of the executive council on Corsica, said he was "ready if necessary" to allow Ocean Viking into one of the island's ports temporarily. He said the row between the French and Italian governments was regrettable and playing out "at the expense of the health, and perhaps the lives, of hundreds of people who are in a state of distress".
"Our position is dictated by the duty of humanity, by the emergency. We cannot, when there are people suffering and in absolute distress a few dozen kilometres from the Corsican coast, look the other way," Simeoni said.
A French interior ministry source cited by BFMTV criticised the Italian authorities' "unacceptable behaviour" that they said was "contrary to marine law as well as the spirit of European solidarity".
On Wednesday, Piantedosi said its government "will not accept lessons on human rights".
Meanwhile, Meloni thanked France for "sharing the responsibility of the migratory emergency, which up to now has been on the back of Italy and a few other states".
"The immigration emergency is a European issue," she said, "and it should be addressed as such."
And the first controversial law of the new government is also already in and it's against... illegal rave parties. Although it's so broad it can be used against many other gatherings.
Quote'Freedom-killing monster': illegal rave crackdown in Italy draws criticism
Halloween party led far-right government to enact legislation including jail terms up to six years
A law enacted by Giorgia Meloni's government that punishes organisers of illegal raves with hefty jail terms has triggered widespread criticism in Italy, with one opponent describing the measure as "a freedom-killing monster".
A three-day-long Halloween party in Modena was the catalyst for the swift enactment of legislation that will punish organisers or promoters of gatherings that put public order or safety at risk with prison sentences of between three and six years and fines ranging from €1,000 to €10,000. Penalties for those who participate in what the decree describes as an "invasion" have not been outlined, but they will be less severe.
The law applies to gatherings involving 50 or more people that "arbitrarily invade other people's land or buildings", raising fears that this would give power to authorities to potentially crack down on peaceful protests.
Getting tough on raves was a campaign policy of Meloni's Brothers of Italy, a party with neofascist roots, and its far-right coalition partner the League, which is led by the deputy prime minister, Matteo Salvini.
Fourteen young people, including a Dutch citizen, are under investigation after the interior minister, Matteo Piantedosi, ordered the eviction on Sunday of more than 3,000 revellers at an illegal rave that had been taking place in an abandoned warehouse in the outskirts of the Emilia-Romagna city of Modena. The event was organised via social media, attracting participants from overseas.
During her first press conference as prime minister on Monday, Meloni referred to a six-day-long rave in the Viterbo area in Lazio last summer, during which one person died.
"With the rave rules we are no different from any other European nation," she said. "When there was the famous Viterbo rave, it struck me that thousands of the people who arrived in Italy to wreak havoc had come from all over Europe because the impression of Italy in recent years has been one of laxity in terms of respecting rules. Now Italy is no longer the nation in which one can commit a crime; there are rules and they are being enforced."
But the hardline measure has been criticised by opposition politicians, unions and Amnesty International Italia.
Enrico Letta, the leader of the centre-left Democratic party, said it was "a serious error" that puts citizens' freedom "at risk", while Giuseppe Conte, who leads the Five Star Movement, described it as "horrifying" and akin to one "from a police state".
Riccardo Magi, the president of the small leftwing party More Europe, described the law as having "a Putin flavour".
Alessandro Zan, a politician with the Democratic party, said the measure was an attack against article 17 of the Italian constitution, which gives citizens "the right to assemble peacefully and without arms".
"The Meloni government has established that if 51 people gather together they risk six years in prison," said Zan. "Their first act is a freedom-killing monster ... raves are just the excuse – the goal is to suppress demonstrations in schools, universities and squares."
Vinicio Nardo, the president of the order of lawyers in Milan, also said the law put article 17 in danger, while Amnesty International Italia said: "It risks having a discretionary and arbitrary application to the detriment of the right to peacefully protest."
Another very reasonable development by Meloni, taking to court anti mafia writer and journalist Roberto Saviano on criminal defamation charges.
QuoteWriter Roberto Saviano goes on trial for comments about Italy's PM
Giorgia Meloni is suing Gomorrah writer for criminal defamation over comments about her migrant policy
The Italian writer Roberto Saviano is standing trial on Tuesday for calling Italy's new prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, a "bastard" after she said NGO boats that had attempted to rescue refugees should be sunk.
Meloni, the leader of Brothers of Italy, a party with neo-fascist origins, who had said Rome should "repatriate migrants and sink the boats that rescued them", sued Saviano for criminal defamation, and last year a judge in Rome ruled that the writer should be tried.
Saviano, who lives under police escort and has been in hiding from the Neapolitan mafia, the Camorra, since 2006 after being threatened by mobsters following publication of his book Gomorrah, faces up to three years in prison.
Meloni's action came after the author, in 2020, was asked on the political TV chatshow Piazzapulita for a comment on the death of a six-month-old baby from Guinea after a shipwreck in the central Mediterranean.
Including in his remarks the leader of the far-right Northern League, Matteo Salvini, who as interior minister introduced a decree imposing fines of up to €50,000 (£44,000) on NGO rescue boats bringing people to Italy, Saviano said: "I just want to say to Meloni, and Salvini, you bastards! How could you?"
"I'm sick of witnessing this disgusting profiteering by Saviano," Meloni replied after Saviano's TV appearance. "Is it normal that this serial hater is allowed to defame, without the right to reply, people who are not present on the talkshow? I have already asked my lawyers to proceed with a legal action against him."
In a previous interview with the Guardian, Saviano, who has repeatedly criticised the treatment of migrants in Italy, said: "If I am sentenced, I will respond to my words, but I will never regret having lost my peace of mind and perhaps even many readers for defending the voiceless."
Numerous writers' and literary associations have expressed their support for Saviano . The PEN International president, Burhan Sönmez, urged Meloni to drop all criminal defamation charges against Saviano and to abide by Italy's national and international obligations to uphold freedom of expression.
"We urge you to drop the case against him and to do everything in your power to support investigative journalism and independent media," Sönmez said in an open letter.
"Criminal defamation lawsuits exhaust their victims. They rob them of their time, of their money, of their vital energy. Crucially, they are punitive and can lead to self-censorship and discourage the investigative journalism that is so necessary in a healthy and functioning democracy.
"They constitute a threat to freedom of expression – which is enshrined in Italy's domestic and international human rights obligations. As the prime minister of Italy, pursing your case against him would send a chilling message to all journalists and writers in the country, who may no longer dare to speak out for fear of reprisals."
"Saviano is not alone," Sönmez added. "We stand with him and will continue to campaign until all criminal defamation charges against him are dropped, and his right to peacefully express his views is upheld once and for all."
So, right wing populists doing right wing populist things? Who could have expected this? :o
I hope their coalition splinters fast.
Maybe the shot in the arm that the sclerotic PD needed?
QuoteElly Schlein voted leader of Italy's most important leftwing party in surprise win
First female leader of Democratic party promises it will become 'a problem' for Giorgia Meloni's far-right government
Italy's most prominent leftwing party has elected its first female leader.
Elly Schlein, 37, defied poll projections and beat Stefano Bonaccini in the leadership race for the Democratic party (PD) on Sunday.
"The Democratic party is alive and ready to stand up," said Schlein. "We did it, together we made a small big revolution, even this time they didn't see us coming."
Schlein said the party, which has struggled to form a strong opposition to Italy's rightwing parties, "will be a problem" for the government led by Giorgia Meloni the leader of Brothers of Italy, a party with neofascist roots.
Schlein, a former MEP, first came to prominence in early 2020 after her small party, Coraggiosa (Courageous), played a pivotal role in stopping the far right from seizing power in the traditionally leftwing Emilia-Romagna region.
Bonaccini won the presidency of the region, with Schlein appointed vice-president, a role from which she stepped down after being elected as a parliamentarian in Italy's general elections in September.
Vocal on social justice issues, Schlein, an Italian-American national, has been compared in Italy to the New York congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She rejoined the Democratic party after leaving in 2015 out of frustration over the direction the party was taking under its then leader and former prime minister, Matteo Renzi.
In an interview with the Guardian in September, she said she "couldn't bear" the PD any more after Renzi enforced his flagship jobs act, containing labour market measures that made it easier for employers to fire people and to hire on precarious contracts.
Among Schlein's policy priorities in the leadership race were a minimum wage, healthcare and the environment.
She takes over from Enrico Letta, who announced his resignation in September after the election that brought Meloni to power.
Her win came as a surprise given polls had forecast a victory for Bonaccini by a wide margin.
"The first thing I ask is to applaud Elly Schlein," Bonaccini said. "I've spoken to her and congratulated her. Good luck for the great responsibility she assumes at the helm of the party. Elly prevailed and I'm available to help out."
Many on the left are pinning their hopes on Schlein to revive the PD, which polls at about 17%, and present a viable opponent to Meloni, a popular leader whose Brothers of Italy party has continued to gather strength since coming to power in coalition with Matteo Salvini's League and Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia.
"We will work together in the interest of the country," Schlein said. "We will work for unity, my commitment is to be everyone's leader, to win again."
QuoteSilvio Berlusconi being treated in intensive care in Milan
Former Italian prime minister taken to hospital amid 'shortness of breath' and reported to be stable
The former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi is in intensive care at San Raffaele hospital in Milan.
According to reports in the Italian press, the 86-year-old is in intensive care in the hospital's cardiology unit.
Rai News reported that he had been taken to hospital after suffering a "shortness of breath" and that his condition was currently stable.
Berlusconi, whose Forza Italia party is in the ruling government coalition, had been discharged from the same hospital on Friday after undergoing routine checks.
Oh dear what a shame on Silvio.
Good luck to Elly. Italy really needs to snap out of its mess someday.
So RIP Berlusconi. Telling figure in a lot of ways with lots of echoes all over the West in the last 30 years.
I often feel like Italy is always a bit of a trendsetter for Western (or at least European politics) where things just happen a bit earlier and more - and maybe nowhere more than in Berlusconi's politics and success.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 12, 2023, 07:36:24 AMSo RIP Berlusconi. Telling figure in a lot of ways with lots of echoes all over the West in the last 30 years.
I often feel like Italy is always a bit of a trendsetter for Western (or at least European politics) where things just happen a bit earlier and more - and maybe nowhere more than in Berlusconi's politics and success.
Yeah I think political trends appear in less stable countries first, just look at this neo-fascist crap in Eastern Europe
Saw this the other day.
https://road.cc/content/news/italian-government-plans-introduce-bike-number-plates-301789
Fascinating how the far right having a massive hard on for hating cycling is such a global phenomena.
Is it just "if the left like it then it must be bad" or is there actually some stupid logic at work?
I think it's a good thing.
It's going to increase safety on the roads and make them a bit more conscious.
Cyclists are not as bad as e-scooters riders, but yes that's not necessarily a bad thing.
As for the enforcement of these rules south of Rome (some mean-spirited people will say south of Padania), colour me skeptical. :P
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 06:58:55 AMI think it's a good thing.
It's going to increase safety on the roads and make them a bit more conscious.
:blink:
Cyclists are far more likely to be the victims of accidents than those causing them. Especially if you look at fatal accidents.
Safety isn't the intent of such legislation. Its a transparent fig leaf to try and excuse a naked part of the whole anti-woke push. Trying to put friction in the way of people cycling to help their intent of rolling it back and avoiding anything that impedes motorists in the slightest.
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 07:21:42 AMQuote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 06:58:55 AMI think it's a good thing.
It's going to increase safety on the roads and make them a bit more conscious.
:blink:
Cyclists are far more likely to be the victims of accidents than those causing them. Especially if you look at fatal accidents.
Safety isn't the intent of such legislation. Its a transparent fig leaf to try and excuse a naked part of the whole anti-woke push. Trying to put friction in the way of people cycling to help their intent of rolling it back and avoiding anything that impedes motorists in the slightest.
The smaller one is always going to be the victim of the bigger one, that's a given, due tot he mass.
I just think that if cyclists wants to use roads, they should share a little part of the costs and be conscious of their own risks too. They often are really dangerous to themselves, and to pedestrians. Sometimes, they create grave injuries to car drivers, but it's the exception.
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 07:27:33 AMQuote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 07:21:42 AMQuote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 06:58:55 AMI think it's a good thing.
It's going to increase safety on the roads and make them a bit more conscious.
:blink:
Cyclists are far more likely to be the victims of accidents than those causing them. Especially if you look at fatal accidents.
Safety isn't the intent of such legislation. Its a transparent fig leaf to try and excuse a naked part of the whole anti-woke push. Trying to put friction in the way of people cycling to help their intent of rolling it back and avoiding anything that impedes motorists in the slightest.
The smaller one is always going to be the victim of the bigger one, that's a given, due tot he mass.
I just think that if cyclists wants to use roads, they should share a little part of the costs and be conscious of their own risks too. They often are really dangerous to themselves, and to pedestrians. Sometimes, they create grave injuries to car drivers, but it's the exception.
Which is why the smaller one should be protected rather than blamed.
The amount of damage bikes cause to roads is really negliable next to cars. Not to mention that most cyclists are drivers too and already paying for the roads there- by getting them to take more journeys on bikes you're taking the same money whilst needing to spend less on maintenance.
More people cycling is desirable for everyone, no matter whether you ever ride a bike or not. If road safety was the aim there's far more sensible ways to do this than putting red tape in the way of people cycling.
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 07:47:01 AMWhich is why the smaller one should be protected rather than blamed.
The amount of damage bikes cause to roads is really negliable next to cars. Not to mention that most cyclists are drivers too and already paying for the roads there- by getting them to take more journeys on bikes you're taking the same money whilst needing to spend less on maintenance.
More people cycling is desirable for everyone, no matter whether you ever ride a bike or not. If road safety was the aim there's far more sensible ways to do this than putting red tape in the way of people cycling.
It's not a question of damage, it's a question of use. They use the roads, they pay to use it.
You don't pay as a user, you pay as a vehicle. Otherwise, motorcyclysts and ATV drivers wouldn't pay for their machines, and if it was a simple question of damage to the roard, motorcyclists would be paying 10x less what they pay now and heavy weights would pay 10x more.
More cycling is desirable, but it has to be done safely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ9ZDLHgMxk
Next in line, these idiots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL4TGGURZbQ
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 08:01:26 AMIt's not a question of damage, it's a question of use. They use the roads, they pay to use it.
Thats insane. Its absolutely a question of damage. If roads didn't need maintenance there'd be no tax to cover road maintenance.
Pedestrians use roads too. Why is there no walking tax?
QuoteYou don't pay as a user, you pay as a vehicle. Otherwise, motorcyclysts and ATV drivers wouldn't pay for their machines, and if it was a simple question of damage to the roard, motorcyclists would be paying 10x less what they pay now and heavy weights would pay 10x more.
This is true (except on motorbikes, I'm not sure there). A logic that is gaining recognition and there is a push to reform laws more in this way. Certainly already you do pay drastically more for bigger engines.
QuoteMore cycling is desirable, but it has to be done safely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ9ZDLHgMxk
Oh wow. In a bit of that he's biking 50 metres from my old flat :lol:
I note thats a few years old though. If you go to Lausanne today you'll see solutions in place precisely to try and stop this happening for real. Not ideal solutions, far better can/should be done, hard barriers in particular rather than just paint, but there's an effort.
https://www.lfm.ch/actualite/suisse/romandie/vaud/lausanne/lausanne-nouveaux-amenagements-pour-les-cyclistes/
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 07:27:33 AMI just think that if cyclists wants to use roads, they should share a little part of the costs and be conscious of their own risks too.
You're in luck then. Cyclists already pay for roads, whether they use them or not. Same as everybody else.
QuoteIn cities throughout Canada, roads and bike lanes are paid through municipal property taxes. And while drivers pay tax on gasoline, licensing and insurance, none of this revenue pays for city roads. Tax on gas goes to provincial and federal coffers, not the city.
QuoteNo federal funding goes to highways; the provinces are responsible for financing all highway work. Capital construction funds come from general revenue, not fuel taxes.
Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2023, 11:58:13 AMSaw this the other day.
https://road.cc/content/news/italian-government-plans-introduce-bike-number-plates-301789
Fascinating how the far right having a massive hard on for hating cycling is such a global phenomena.
Is it just "if the left like it then it must be bad" or is there actually some stupid logic at work?
I think class and place of their supporters is a large part of it.
Quote from: Jacob on June 23, 2023, 09:44:31 AMQuote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 07:27:33 AMI just think that if cyclists wants to use roads, they should share a little part of the costs and be conscious of their own risks too.
You're in luck then. Cyclists already pay for roads, whether they use them or not. Same as everybody else.
QuoteIn cities throughout Canada, roads and bike lanes are paid through municipal property taxes. And while drivers pay tax on gasoline, licensing and insurance, none of this revenue pays for city roads. Tax on gas goes to provincial and federal coffers, not the city.
QuoteNo federal funding goes to highways; the provinces are responsible for financing all highway work. Capital construction funds come from general revenue, not fuel taxes.
The provincial governments transfer a share of these taxes to the cities so they can take care of their roads. In Quebec, it's called T.E.C.Q.. It's a specific portion of the fuel tax, but I don't know the exact calculations. There are other government transfer from the GST and PST too. :)
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 08:13:41 AMThats insane. Its absolutely a question of damage. If roads didn't need maintenance there'd be no tax to cover road maintenance.
Pedestrians use roads too. Why is there no walking tax?
I guess there used to be in the middle ages. It pays more to go after vehicle owners.
When bikes used to be a couple hundred dollars and used only in the summer it could be still be acceptable, but now, they require dedicated lanes, they need the be open all year long, they are often reckless toward pedestrians when they have shared spaces, and they are also reckless for themselves.
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 08:13:41 AMQuoteThis is true (except on motorbikes, I'm not sure there). A logic that is gaining recognition and there is a push to reform laws more in this way. Certainly already you do pay drastically more for bigger engines.
In Quebec, motorcycles pay according to the danger they pose to themselves. Sports bikes pay more than than Harley Davidson types, even they have a smaller engine.
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 08:13:41 AMQuoteMore cycling is desirable, but it has to be done safely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ9ZDLHgMxk
Oh wow. In a bit of that he's biking 50 metres from my old flat :lol:
I note thats a few years old though. If you go to Lausanne today you'll see solutions in place precisely to try and stop this happening for real. Not ideal solutions, far better can/should be done, hard barriers in particular rather than just paint, but there's an effort.
https://www.lfm.ch/actualite/suisse/romandie/vaud/lausanne/lausanne-nouveaux-amenagements-pour-les-cyclistes/
It's cool. But if I could find it, I would show a similar video made in Montreal. And of course, cyclists are offended they are targeted by such messages. :)
But the point is, if authorities all over the world (there are similar videos made in France too) feel the need to make such advertising campaign, it must be because they feel there is a problem to begin with, and it's not just the drivers who are at fault (they often are, without a doubt, but not always).
numberplates for bikes aren't exactly unheard of. I remember being required to have on one the bike back when I was a kid. Obviously it's just a way to get more tax, given that Italy needs a lot of money. (I hope the politicians over here don't get wind of it or they might just reintroduce that here too. Given that Belgium is the global taxation-champion)
Making helmets compulsory might not be a bad idea at all.
Not sure about the direction-signals though, where would those go? Though it's probably safer than putting out your arm on a busy street or just going for it.
depending on the rest it may be less crazy than it is made out to be (even taking into account chips on shoulders and so)
QuoteI think class and place of their supporters is a large part of it.
Gammon?
(or would that be pancetta here?)
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 04:43:07 PMI guess there used to be in the middle ages. It pays more to go after vehicle owners.
When bikes used to be a couple hundred dollars and used only in the summer it could be still be acceptable, but now, they require dedicated lanes, they need the be open all year long, they are often reckless toward pedestrians when they have shared spaces, and they are also reckless for themselves.
I thought you were talking about bikes using roads so paying for roads?
If they had their own separate lines then there might be something to talk about in paying for this- though given its a benefit for all to get more people in there rather than in a car it seems misplaced to get them to pay for it.
Cyclists being reckless is quite a myth. You get far more examples of people driving being reckless. And again; as a pedestrian wouldn't you rather these people be on 10kg of metal going 15 kph where they have to look out for their own safety than encased in a 60 kph metal bullet?
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 08:13:41 AMIn Quebec, motorcycles pay according to the danger they pose to themselves. Sports bikes pay more than than Harley Davidson types, even they have a smaller engine.
Really?
I know nothing about Canadian vehicle ownership but this sounds like a very strange system that is out of sync with elsewhere.
QuoteIt's cool. But if I could find it, I would show a similar video made in Montreal. And of course, cyclists are offended they are targeted by such messages. :)
But the point is, if authorities all over the world (there are similar videos made in France too) feel the need to make such advertising campaign, it must be because they feel there is a problem to begin with, and it's not just the drivers who are at fault (they often are, without a doubt, but not always).
There's also countless videos about pedestrian safety. Lots of campaigns targeted against kids on how to be outside safely. Kids being outside is still something very desirable we want to see more of.
Quotenumberplates for bikes aren't exactly unheard of. I remember being required to have on one the bike back when I was a kid. Obviously it's just a way to get more tax, given that Italy needs a lot of money. (I hope the politicians over here don't get wind of it or they might just reintroduce that here too. Given that Belgium is the global taxation-champion)
Making helmets compulsory might not be a bad idea at all.
Not sure about the direction-signals though, where would those go? Though it's probably safer than putting out your arm on a busy street or just going for it.
depending on the rest it may be less crazy than it is made out to be (even taking into account chips on shoulders and so)
The only place I've encountered it, sort of, is in Japan, the land of bureaucracy. Where every bike has a registration sticker rather than a clearly visible number plate.
The trouble with much of this stuff, indeed with the hate for bikes in general, is its meshing together a bunch of completely different groups- road cyclists racing down country lanes and little kids with their mam walking alongside them on the path to school are completely different things.
I could see the case for number plates and compulsory safety gear for road cyclists - most of whom already have their bike registered and wear safety gear- but it seems like its just discouraging desirable behaviour for say someone popping to the shop on a regular bike.
As far as tax is concerned, remember there's two sides to that equation, taxation and spending. Reducing car miles reduces the spending side even if it runs the risk of someone deciding they don't need a car altogether and reducing the tax income.
Quote from: Josquius on June 26, 2023, 04:32:18 AMQuoteI think class and place of their supporters is a large part of it.
Gammon?
(or would that be pancetta here?)
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 04:43:07 PMI guess there used to be in the middle ages. It pays more to go after vehicle owners.
When bikes used to be a couple hundred dollars and used only in the summer it could be still be acceptable, but now, they require dedicated lanes, they need the be open all year long, they are often reckless toward pedestrians when they have shared spaces, and they are also reckless for themselves.
I thought you were talking about bikes using roads so paying for roads?
If they had their own separate lines then there might be something to talk about in paying for this- though given its a benefit for all to get more people in there rather than in a car it seems misplaced to get them to pay for it.
Cyclists being reckless is quite a myth. You get far more examples of people driving being reckless. And again; as a pedestrian wouldn't you rather these people be on 10kg of metal going 15 kph where they have to look out for their own safety than encased in a 60 kph metal bullet?
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 08:13:41 AMIn Quebec, motorcycles pay according to the danger they pose to themselves. Sports bikes pay more than than Harley Davidson types, even they have a smaller engine.
Really?
I know nothing about Canadian vehicle ownership but this sounds like a very strange system that is out of sync with elsewhere.
QuoteIt's cool. But if I could find it, I would show a similar video made in Montreal. And of course, cyclists are offended they are targeted by such messages. :)
But the point is, if authorities all over the world (there are similar videos made in France too) feel the need to make such advertising campaign, it must be because they feel there is a problem to begin with, and it's not just the drivers who are at fault (they often are, without a doubt, but not always).
There's also countless videos about pedestrian safety. Lots of campaigns targeted against kids on how to be outside safely. Kids being outside is still something very desirable we want to see more of.
Quotenumberplates for bikes aren't exactly unheard of. I remember being required to have on one the bike back when I was a kid. Obviously it's just a way to get more tax, given that Italy needs a lot of money. (I hope the politicians over here don't get wind of it or they might just reintroduce that here too. Given that Belgium is the global taxation-champion)
Making helmets compulsory might not be a bad idea at all.
Not sure about the direction-signals though, where would those go? Though it's probably safer than putting out your arm on a busy street or just going for it.
depending on the rest it may be less crazy than it is made out to be (even taking into account chips on shoulders and so)
The only place I've encountered it, sort of, is in Japan, the land of bureaucracy. Where every bike has a registration sticker rather than a clearly visible number plate.
The trouble with much of this stuff, indeed with the hate for bikes in general, is its meshing together a bunch of completely different groups- road cyclists racing down country lanes and little kids with their mam walking alongside them on the path to school are completely different things.
I could see the case for number plates and compulsory safety gear for road cyclists - most of whom already have their bike registered and wear safety gear- but it seems like its just discouraging desirable behaviour for say someone popping to the shop on a regular bike.
As far as tax is concerned, remember there's two sides to that equation, taxation and spending. Reducing car miles reduces the spending side even if it runs the risk of someone deciding they don't need a car altogether and reducing the tax income.
The same people driving a car will often drive a bike too. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Reckless driving and reckless biking aren't myths, but there are more accidents caused by reckless drivers. Quebec's stats shows close to a third of accidents caused by cyclists or shared responsibilities.
I'm all in favor of cyclists paying a token fee for using the roads as well as insurance. In Quebec, every driver has an indemnity insurance provided by the government and as it is now, cyclists will receive indemnities for road accidents but never contribute anything.
We all share the road, we all have our responsibilities.
As for dedicated bike lanes. Well. I'm much in favor of cities paying for these with the general funds where they're for summer use, especially when they're for shared use. But when you start asking cities to open bike lanes for all season, I think cyclists will have to share the costs.
The only point I want to add is that when I see bikers on sidewalks right next to bike lanes I want to push them into traffic. My street has bike lanes. 1 in 10 riders I see still zoom past pedestrians on a busy sidewalk.
QuoteThe only point I want to add is that when I see bikers on sidewalks right next to bike lanes I want to push them into traffic. My street has bike lanes. 1 in 10 riders I see still zoom past pedestrians on a busy sidewalk.
Actual bike lanes or just little lines painted on the road alongside 50mph traffic?
If the former then yep. They should be fined.
If the latter then really don't blame them for valuing their safety. This is clearly following the same principles as desire paths.
Quote from: viper37 on June 26, 2023, 12:36:41 PMQuote from: Josquius on June 26, 2023, 04:32:18 AMQuoteI think class and place of their supporters is a large part of it.
Gammon?
(or would that be pancetta here?)
Quote from: viper37 on June 23, 2023, 04:43:07 PMI guess there used to be in the middle ages. It pays more to go after vehicle owners.
When bikes used to be a couple hundred dollars and used only in the summer it could be still be acceptable, but now, they require dedicated lanes, they need the be open all year long, they are often reckless toward pedestrians when they have shared spaces, and they are also reckless for themselves.
I thought you were talking about bikes using roads so paying for roads?
If they had their own separate lines then there might be something to talk about in paying for this- though given its a benefit for all to get more people in there rather than in a car it seems misplaced to get them to pay for it.
Cyclists being reckless is quite a myth. You get far more examples of people driving being reckless. And again; as a pedestrian wouldn't you rather these people be on 10kg of metal going 15 kph where they have to look out for their own safety than encased in a 60 kph metal bullet?
Quote from: Josquius on June 23, 2023, 08:13:41 AMIn Quebec, motorcycles pay according to the danger they pose to themselves. Sports bikes pay more than than Harley Davidson types, even they have a smaller engine.
Really?
I know nothing about Canadian vehicle ownership but this sounds like a very strange system that is out of sync with elsewhere.
QuoteIt's cool. But if I could find it, I would show a similar video made in Montreal. And of course, cyclists are offended they are targeted by such messages. :)
But the point is, if authorities all over the world (there are similar videos made in France too) feel the need to make such advertising campaign, it must be because they feel there is a problem to begin with, and it's not just the drivers who are at fault (they often are, without a doubt, but not always).
There's also countless videos about pedestrian safety. Lots of campaigns targeted against kids on how to be outside safely. Kids being outside is still something very desirable we want to see more of.
Quotenumberplates for bikes aren't exactly unheard of. I remember being required to have on one the bike back when I was a kid. Obviously it's just a way to get more tax, given that Italy needs a lot of money. (I hope the politicians over here don't get wind of it or they might just reintroduce that here too. Given that Belgium is the global taxation-champion)
Making helmets compulsory might not be a bad idea at all.
Not sure about the direction-signals though, where would those go? Though it's probably safer than putting out your arm on a busy street or just going for it.
depending on the rest it may be less crazy than it is made out to be (even taking into account chips on shoulders and so)
The only place I've encountered it, sort of, is in Japan, the land of bureaucracy. Where every bike has a registration sticker rather than a clearly visible number plate.
The trouble with much of this stuff, indeed with the hate for bikes in general, is its meshing together a bunch of completely different groups- road cyclists racing down country lanes and little kids with their mam walking alongside them on the path to school are completely different things.
I could see the case for number plates and compulsory safety gear for road cyclists - most of whom already have their bike registered and wear safety gear- but it seems like its just discouraging desirable behaviour for say someone popping to the shop on a regular bike.
As far as tax is concerned, remember there's two sides to that equation, taxation and spending. Reducing car miles reduces the spending side even if it runs the risk of someone deciding they don't need a car altogether and reducing the tax income.
The same people driving a car will often drive a bike too. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Reckless driving and reckless biking aren't myths, but there are more accidents caused by reckless drivers. Quebec's stats shows close to a third of accidents caused by cyclists or shared responsibilities.
I'm all in favor of cyclists paying a token fee for using the roads as well as insurance. In Quebec, every driver has an indemnity insurance provided by the government and as it is now, cyclists will receive indemnities for road accidents but never contribute anything.
We all share the road, we all have our responsibilities.
As for dedicated bike lanes. Well. I'm much in favor of cities paying for these with the general funds where they're for summer use, especially when they're for shared use. But when you start asking cities to open bike lanes for all season, I think cyclists will have to share the costs.
Cyclists do pay the costs though? As you say they're also usually car owners and they pay taxes.
I've never come across seasonal only bike lanes. Do you mean as in they're not plowed when it snows or literally they switch function?
Where did you read this third of road accidents are caused by bikes? That sounds crazy high for somewhere not known for being particularly cycling heavy. Would need to see a break down there too - I wouldn't doubt these numbers in Holland for instance, but I doubt the death rate tracks (unless its the cyclist dying vs something bigger)
I don't doubt reckless cyclists exist. This is a big reason why segregated bike lanes are desirable. Also as said, getting hit by a bike is much better than being hit by a car.
Quote from: Josquius on June 26, 2023, 04:32:18 AMGammon?
(or would that be pancetta here?)
:lol: Basically.
I could be wrong but I have a sense that people who rely on their own vehicle (or a vehicle they have an interest in) for their profession are maybe some of the core-est vote of the radical right: truckers, (self-employed) tradesmen, cabbies. I can think of some theory why and it could be bullshit. But I suspect those people are also, broadly, more likely to be anti-cyclist so this is just rewarding the base.
And with place just more rural and reliant on cars tend to vote right - so where public transport/cycling are not options policies for those probably seem like more self-indulgent politics for urbanites. And vice versa.
And, incidentally, it doesn't mean they're wrong - it wasn't about cycling but the complaints and perceptions of unfairness that drove the gilets jaunes seem reasonably well founded (even if they overlapped with jambon).
Quote from: Josquius on June 26, 2023, 02:13:40 PMQuoteThe only point I want to add is that when I see bikers on sidewalks right next to bike lanes I want to push them into traffic. My street has bike lanes. 1 in 10 riders I see still zoom past pedestrians on a busy sidewalk.
Actual bike lanes or just little lines painted on the road alongside 50mph traffic?
If the former then yep. They should be fined.
If the latter then really don't blame them for valuing their safety. This is clearly following the same principles as desire paths.
Actual lanes, with collapsible safety bollards and all. Happens most often when cyclists use pedestrian crossing to jump red lights. Not sure if THAT's legal, but all cyclists seem to do it. Most swerve back into the road after the cross. The 1/10 stay on the sidewalk until they hit the next green light. Guess they don't want to hope the curb.
*edit* going to your second last sentence, what about pedestrian safety. If we're going by the rule of escalating vulnerability don't pedestrians take priority and so bike stay on the road? Even if it's just "little lines painted".
I don't drive, I walk or take public transport, and I'll admit I hate the vast majority of cyclists. Kids are cute though.
Quote from: HVC on June 26, 2023, 02:26:09 PMQuote from: Josquius on June 26, 2023, 02:13:40 PMQuoteThe only point I want to add is that when I see bikers on sidewalks right next to bike lanes I want to push them into traffic. My street has bike lanes. 1 in 10 riders I see still zoom past pedestrians on a busy sidewalk.
Actual bike lanes or just little lines painted on the road alongside 50mph traffic?
If the former then yep. They should be fined.
If the latter then really don't blame them for valuing their safety. This is clearly following the same principles as desire paths.
Actual lanes, with collapsible safety bollards and all. Happens most often when cyclists use pedestrian crossing to jump red lights. Not sure if THAT's legal, but all cyclists seem to do it. Most swerve back into the road after the cross. The 1/10 stay on the sidewalk until they hit the next green light. Guess they don't want to hope the curb.
*edit* going to your second last sentence, what about pedestrian safety. If we're going by the rule of escalating vulnerability don't pedestrians take priority and so bike stay on the road? Even if it's just "little lines painted".
I don't drive, I walk or take public transport, and I'll admit I hate the vast majority of cyclists. Kids are cute though.
Car hits a bike - cyclist has a high chance of serious injury.
Cyclist hits a pedestrian - pedestrian has a low chance of serious injury.
This isn't a black and white thing. It has to be judged very case by case. How dangerous is the road, how crowded the pavement, how fast the cyclist, etc...
It's a part of why proper bike lanes are important. Make it so each has their place and things do become binary with a clear hierarchy.
Cyclists can and do kill pedestrians. Seriously injure them too. 74 people cyclists die iin Canada per year according to Google. Tragic but small. Stay on the road.
*edit* and 27% of those don't include vehicles.
Quote from: HVC on June 26, 2023, 02:42:34 PMCyclists can and do kill pedestrians. Seriously injure them too. 74 people cyclists die iin Canada per year according to Google. Tragic but small. Stay on the road.
*edit* and 27% of those don't include vehicles.
All kinds of freak accidents are possible.
Regardless it's simple physics that being hit by something going at running speed and weighing just 10kg more than a person is infinitely safer than 1500kg going 30mph+
Checking up for the uk i see 400 people killed in collisions with vehicles per year with 2.5 involving a cyclist.
Do what is safest I say. Zero blame for cyclists going on the path along busy fast roads with no pedestrians in sight.
Getting shot is more dangerous than getting stabbed. Doesn't give you the right to throw knives in and around people so you feel safer. Roads are for vehicles. Sidewalks are for pedestrians.
*edit* I can't tell you how many pedestrians are killed or injured by bikes in Canada as it's recorded as in incident and not a collision. In New York " bicyclists have injured more than 2,250 pedestrians — including at least seven who died" from 2011 to 2018 as a comparison.
Quote from: HVC on June 26, 2023, 02:57:25 PMGetting shot is more dangerous than getting stabbed. Doesn't give you the right to throw knives in and around people so you feel safer. Roads are for vehicles. Sidewalks are for pedestrians.
*edit* I can't tell you how many pedestrians are killed or injured by bikes in Canada as it's recorded as in incident and not a collision. In New York " bicyclists have injured more than 2,250 pedestrians — including at least seven who died" from 2011 to 2018 as a comparison.
That's a terrible analogy. Throwing knives around serves no purpose. Riding a bike does.
It's not just my feelings that it's a grey area. It's in law as well in the UK at least. There are rules against cycling on the pavement and the potential for small fines but also clear guidance alongside this that it isn't meant to bar safe cycling on the pavement when you're afraid of the traffic.
I don't have numbers for it but I'd wager there's a few deaths a year from people on foot colliding with each other. Unexpected shit happens.
The clear solution is proper segregated cycle paths.