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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Barrister on June 21, 2022, 11:30:34 AM

Title: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Barrister on June 21, 2022, 11:30:34 AM
Okay, so recently saw two disconnected news articles, but seemed to relate a common problem.

First, locally about the Alberta NDP (our left-wing party):

QuoteExternal firm to examine staff and volunteer mistreatment by NDP, Notley says

Independent body to review the party's human resources policies
The Canadian Press ยท Posted: Jun 19, 2022 5:11 PM MT | Last Updated: June 19

Alberta's Opposition leader apologized to delegates during a speech to her party's provincial council on Sunday in Red Deer, saying complaints about treatment of staff and volunteers will be investigated by an external firm.

Rachel Notley also promised that an independent body will review the NDP's human resources policies to ensure they have "robust policies and proper codes of conduct in place."

She added that all of the party's executive staff, including herself, will take additional workplace training.

Notley told reporters last week that she and the party executive would recommend finding an independent body with expertise in harassment complaints, and the matter would be discussed by NDP leadership this weekend.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ndp-rachel-notley-opposition-leader-mistreatment-volunteers-1.6494259

So, while I have a number of problems with the NDP, the idea that they systematically mistreat their volunteers seems hard to believe.

But I also saw this article, based in the US.

https://theintercept.com/2022/06/13/progressive-organizing-infighting-callout-culture/

It's really long, not easily excerptable, but goes through a whole bunch of US-based progressive groups having problems with their own employees.  But here's a couple of anecdotes that seems to sum up the problem:

QuoteFOR PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT organizations, 2021 promised to be the year they turned power into policy, with a Democratic trifecta and the Biden administration broadcasting a bold vision of "transformational change." Out of the gate, Democrats pushed ahead with the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan, funding everything from expanded health care to a new monthly child tax credit. Republican efforts to slow-walk the process with disingenuous counteroffers were simply dismissed.

And then, sometime in the summer, the forward momentum stalled, and many of the progressive gains lapsed or were reversed. Instead of fueling a groundswell of public support to reinvigorate the party's ambitious agenda, most of the foundation-backed organizations that make up the backbone of the party's ideological infrastructure were still spending their time locked in virtual retreats, Slack wars, and healing sessions, grappling with tensions over hierarchy, patriarchy, race, gender, and power.

"So much energy has been devoted to the internal strife and internal bullshit that it's had a real impact on the ability for groups to deliver," said one organization leader who departed his position. "It's been huge, particularly over the last year and a half or so, the ability for groups to focus on their mission, whether it's reproductive justice, or jobs, or fighting climate change."

QuoteDuring the 2020 presidential campaign, as entry-level staffers for Sanders repeatedly agitated over internal dynamics, despite having already formed a staff union, the senator issued a directive to his campaign leadership: "Stop hiring activists." Instead, Sanders implored, according to multiple campaign sources, the campaign should focus on bringing on people interested first and foremost in doing the job they're hired to do.

The source for the second article is The Intercept, which is not a news source I'm very familiar with.  Googling says it was founded by Glenn Greenwald (though he left 2 years ago).  Greenwald I am familiar with and he is... problematic.  A leftist more famous for criticizing the left, most known for working with Edward Snowden, and a definite Russia apologist.

But still - the problems the Alberta NDP is going through seem entirely consistent with the problems described in The Intercept article.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 11:49:32 AM
I have thoughts, but they aren't anything new.

The left eats its own. It cares more about winning arguments then winning power and actually getting anything done.

I despair.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:52:53 AM
Greenwald as been terrible for a long time. News 11 million years ago.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 11:55:20 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:52:53 AMGreenwald as been terrible for a long time. News 11 million years ago.
The article was not written by Greenwald.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: HVC on June 21, 2022, 11:55:32 AM
Activists are pretentious and annoying by default.  I could see working with them as terribly tiring.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 11:55:20 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:52:53 AMGreenwald as been terrible for a long time. News 11 million years ago.
The article was not written by Greenwald.

Oh I missed he left it.

Oh well.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Barrister on June 21, 2022, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:52:53 AMGreenwald as been terrible for a long time. News 11 million years ago.

Okay, so I acknowledged that in my post.

But still:

A. Greenwald has been out for The Intercept for two years; and
B. the reporting seems consistent with other things I've heard, including the otherwise unrelated story from the Alberta NDP.

So I don't know if just going ad hominem on Glenn Greenwald is enough to dismiss the article.

And yes, if you want to just tu quoque the article, I'll freely acknowledge yesterday's news story about the Missouri GOP Senate candidate wanting to go "RINO hunting" which was absolutely disgusting.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Sheilbh on June 21, 2022, 02:00:02 PM
I think there's two separate things there.

The HR stuff isn't particular to the left. I think organisations/institutions that have a purpose, or that people believe in are more likely to have cover-ups of really bad behaviour and, because of that, tolerate it. I think if people feel protective of an institution - which they definitely do about a political party they believe in - they'll prioritise protecting it of doing right by individuals. In the UK there's been scandals like that in every party, in the church, in the NHS, the BBC, the forces etc - I imagine there are equivalents in most countries.

I also think abusive is more likely to happen if you're in a sector with lots of young people who want to get in and limited roles - politics, charities, arts, fashion, video games. Combine the two (political parties, charities) and I think you can end up creating self-reinforcing really bad misconduct that people normalise but to anyone outside in another, less popular, job is unbelievable.

I definitely think there's something of the left's consultant class using donations as a make-work scheme for other highly educated lefties to "facilitate" sessions, consult or give training sessions etc. I think it's more of a cultural issue than a thing specific to the left though - if anything I think it points more to a capture of the left by (I hate to use this phrase but) the professional middle class and nepotism more than anything else. I think the activist left is far from the only area that has been captured and used by professional middle class as a make-work scheme for their mates - I think it does play into their alienation from supporters though.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Jacob on June 21, 2022, 03:02:53 PM
Apt analysis, Sheilbh.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 03:20:53 PM
If the left put half the work int actually getting things accomplished that we put into figuring out why we don't need to do anything differently, we would run the show.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 03:31:26 PM
Probably doesn't help that young activists on the right are far more likely to have the means to support themselves and so can't be so easily exploited.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Jacob on June 21, 2022, 03:34:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 03:20:53 PMIf the left put half the work int actually getting things accomplished that we put into figuring out why we don't need to do anything differently, we would run the show.

Not intended as snarky or anything - do you identify as left wing at this point? IIRC you were a self-declared centrist for quite a while.

If so... welcome :hug:
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 03:38:15 PM
I consider myself a practical progressive. I think the way forward for humanity is through technology, cooperation, and effective and practical use of our collected resources, which requires a strong and capable government able to actually get things done.

I don't know what that makes me. To the right I am Bernie Sanders, and to the "real" left, I am a right wing apologist, apparently.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Jacob on June 21, 2022, 03:39:02 PM
Seems a reasonable enough position to me :cheers:
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: viper37 on June 21, 2022, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 21, 2022, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:52:53 AMGreenwald as been terrible for a long time. News 11 million years ago.

Okay, so I acknowledged that in my post.

But still:

A. Greenwald has been out for The Intercept for two years; and
B. the reporting seems consistent with other things I've heard, including the otherwise unrelated story from the Alberta NDP.

So I don't know if just going ad hominem on Glenn Greenwald is enough to dismiss the article.

And yes, if you want to just tu quoque the article, I'll freely acknowledge yesterday's news story about the Missouri GOP Senate candidate wanting to go "RINO hunting" which was absolutely disgusting.

Quebec's largest unions have often been accused of mistreating their employees.  Fighting tooth and nail to avoid providing or expanding beyond minimalist insurance package to their own employees (when not simply trying to screw them out of their benefits), fighting against the unionization of corporations which they control through their investment funds (making Walmart and Amazon proud seems to be their goals :whistle: , sexual harassment, work-related harassment (again, some stories would make the 'best' Amazon managers blush) or outright racism by local union leadership.  
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 21, 2022, 03:49:26 PM
I left out the social part of that.

In regards to socil identity, I am old school MLK. I think we should strive to get to a place where someone's skin color is about as interesting and relevant to their standing in society and economics as their hair color. I think we are a LOOOONG way away from that, and the pernicious influence of human nature and our lizard brain desire to categorize and de-humanize others who don't fit into some idiotic notion of our tribe has created stark inequities that cannot be redressed without active adjustment to economic, political, and social structures. 

In general, our lizard brains kind of suck, and we have to accept and figure out how to ignore the parts that don't serve us well anymore, and most intolerance of others comes from our human nature.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: crazy canuck on June 22, 2022, 12:35:18 PM
I am not sure why anyone is surprised that within large organizations there are bad apples who do not treat everyone as they should.  I am also not surprised that left leaning organizations are not immune from this.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: grumbler on June 23, 2022, 07:46:08 PM
I am not sure why anyone is surprised that the same posters, over and over again, comment in threads pretending bewilderment when they haven't even read the articles under discussion or comprehended what they are saying.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 08:45:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2022, 11:52:53 AMGreenwald as been terrible for a long time. News 11 million years ago.

Greenwald left the Intercept years ago. He is just the founder.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 08:54:57 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2022, 12:35:18 PMI am not sure why anyone is surprised that within large organizations there are bad apples who do not treat everyone as they should.  I am also not surprised that left leaning organizations are not immune from this.

Even  when it is increasingly systemic across virtually all of them? This kind of dysfunction is fucking the United States huge at a critical time when not only have an opportunity to effect real change but when the right wing is particularly dangerous and powerful. I am really fed up with it, it has been something that has been slowly moving forward for years, and right now it is getting in the way of some of my most cherished issues: reproductive rights, climate change, and energy. We have made so much progress and to see so many of our activist allied organizations ripping themselves apart by infighting is really tiresome. (Well ok the progress is in the climate change and energy parts, not nearly enough but way more than I thought realistic 15 years ago when I started this journey and incredible when you consider the strength of the groups arrayed against us. The reproductive rights situation is a shitshow.)

I think I commented on here a decade ago when I had more time for activist about how frustrated I was with feminist groups for reproductive rights issues and environmentalist groups for climate change and energy issues and how shitty they were for allies because they just fought amongst themselves and called each other out constantly and never did anything. We are all trying to take the next step and they are already fighting over the hundredth step and being really theoretical when concrete practical issues were what was needed. And it only seems to have gotten worse since then. 

If four years of Donald Trump was not enough for people to take shit seriously I don't know what it will take. It is just really frustrating and more so that so many of you just ignore the problem and pretend it isn't there. I mean not that I know what to do about it.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Razgovory on June 23, 2022, 09:16:04 PM
I didn't read the opening post, the news story that went with it, or the the following posts; can I still dismiss it? 
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 23, 2022, 09:20:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 23, 2022, 09:16:04 PMI didn't read the opening post, the news story that went with it, or the the following posts; can I still dismiss it?

Will you read our responses?
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Razgovory on June 23, 2022, 10:32:42 PM
Only to dismiss them.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: crazy canuck on June 24, 2022, 12:19:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 08:54:57 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2022, 12:35:18 PMI am not sure why anyone is surprised that within large organizations there are bad apples who do not treat everyone as they should.  I am also not surprised that left leaning organizations are not immune from this.

Even  when it is increasingly systemic across virtually all of them? This kind of dysfunction is fucking the United States huge at a critical time when not only have an opportunity to effect real change but when the right wing is particularly dangerous and powerful. I am really fed up with it, it has been something that has been slowly moving forward for years, and right now it is getting in the way of some of my most cherished issues: reproductive rights, climate change, and energy. We have made so much progress and to see so many of our activist allied organizations ripping themselves apart by infighting is really tiresome. (Well ok the progress is in the climate change and energy parts, not nearly enough but way more than I thought realistic 15 years ago when I started this journey and incredible when you consider the strength of the groups arrayed against us. The reproductive rights situation is a shitshow.)

I think I commented on here a decade ago when I had more time for activist about how frustrated I was with feminist groups for reproductive rights issues and environmentalist groups for climate change and energy issues and how shitty they were for allies because they just fought amongst themselves and called each other out constantly and never did anything. We are all trying to take the next step and they are already fighting over the hundredth step and being really theoretical when concrete practical issues were what was needed. And it only seems to have gotten worse since then. 

If four years of Donald Trump was not enough for people to take shit seriously I don't know what it will take. It is just really frustrating and more so that so many of you just ignore the problem and pretend it isn't there. I mean not that I know what to do about it.

The first article BB posted was about the NDP mistreating its volunteers.  As you say, that happens across all parties.  And so I am not sure why anyone would be surprised it would also happen within the NDP.  Does being a left wing party somehow mean that everyone is virtuous and a good manager?  Probably not.

The second articles goes into a lot of detail about what happens in the US, and I defer to you about whether it is accurate or not. But the point is the same, in a large organization of largely volunteers, do you really expect that left leaning parties are going to be somehow immune to the fault BB had drawn our attention to in his post?

Frankly the problems with your country's politics run quite a lot deeper than the point BB raised.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 12:39:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 24, 2022, 12:19:20 PMDoes being a left wing party somehow mean that everyone is virtuous and a good manager?  Probably not.
Good manager and left wing don't go together.  Otherwise, they would right wing, so we can exclude that. ;)

Virtuous, when they pretend to be the only virtuous ones, I would expect so...

In other news, the FTQ (an affiliated union) is caught up in yet another corruption scandal.  Some top executives stole money from the union to buy themselves some luxury cars & condos.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AM
Always fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?

Eh?
I don't understand.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Eddie Teach on June 25, 2022, 05:43:13 PM
Any large grouping of people will claim the moral high ground. It's human nature to think Us are better than Them.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Tonitrus on June 25, 2022, 05:45:26 PM
Both sides claim the moral high ground.  What is the right's position on abortion if not the textbook example of taking the moral high ground?  The states' rights legal argument against Roe is a transparent means to a further end.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Sheilbh on June 25, 2022, 05:56:55 PM
I think it depends where you are - can't really think of many, if any, times the Tories have claimed the moral high ground :lol:
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Tonitrus on June 25, 2022, 06:40:25 PM
Do they take the immoral high ground instead?  :P

I suppose, in a very simplistic way..."we're right and you're wrong" is a moral high ground. 
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Sheilbh on June 25, 2022, 06:49:50 PM
:lol:

I suppose it varies over time but I don't think they've ever really made a moral pitch - Labour very much has ("a moral crusade or it is nothing"). The Tory line is normally that it might be nice to live in that world, but we can't afford it - or that they're administering medicine we might not enjoy, but need.

The Tory pitch is basically in one way or another normally competence that ends with a series of scandals; Labour's is doing the right thing but ends in an economic crisis.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: viper37 on June 26, 2022, 12:24:01 AM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?

Eh?
I don't understand.
" Always fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame."

Wich part of my post led you to write that then, if not that? :)
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Josquius on June 26, 2022, 06:03:42 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 26, 2022, 12:24:01 AM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?

Eh?
I don't understand.
" Always fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame."

Wich part of my post led you to write that then, if not that? :)



QuoteVirtuous, when they pretend to be the only virtuous ones, I would expect so...
You seem to be implying any virtue is fake whilst they do the same as the right but for different groups.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: crazy canuck on June 26, 2022, 07:43:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?

Unlike say the fundamentalist Christian Right?
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2022, 07:55:45 AM
"Damn, I just don't understand how the progressives and the left loses so much! We represent the views of the majority of people, and yet the fucking crazy right wingers still win so many elections and get so much power? How is that so???"

People point out all kinds of things that the left does to shoot themselves in the foot from embrace of cancel culture, identity politics, inability to effectively use power when they have it, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., fucking ETC.

"NOOOOOOOO! THAT CANNOT BE! THAT IS JUST RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA AND LIES LIES LIES! THE LEFT DOESN"T DO NOTHING WRONG!"

This entire thing is hopeless. I am going to try to adopt George Carlins view on politics and the human condition.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
It's a free country, Berkut, it's always going to be true that there will be zealots in a party that act or talk in a way that turns people off.  That goes both ways, for every Chesa Boudin there is a Ken Paxton (and that is grossly unfair to Boudin who may be a little nutty but isn't an outright crook).  If anything, the Democrats and their primary voters seem to do a better job of weeding out their extremists than the Republicans do.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 27, 2022, 09:21:26 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2022, 08:38:39 AMIt's a free country, Berkut, it's always going to be true that there will be zealots in a party that act or talk in a way that turns people off.  That goes both ways, for every Chesa Boudin there is a Ken Paxton (and that is grossly unfair to Boudin who may be a little nutty but isn't an outright crook).  If anything, the Democrats and their primary voters seem to do a better job of weeding out their extremists than the Republicans do.
Not at all what I am talking about.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: crazy canuck on June 27, 2022, 10:28:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2022, 07:55:45 AM"Damn, I just don't understand how the progressives and the left loses so much! We represent the views of the majority of people, and yet the fucking crazy right wingers still win so many elections and get so much power? How is that so???"

People point out all kinds of things that the left does to shoot themselves in the foot from embrace of cancel culture, identity politics, inability to effectively use power when they have it, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., fucking ETC.

"NOOOOOOOO! THAT CANNOT BE! THAT IS JUST RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA AND LIES LIES LIES! THE LEFT DOESN"T DO NOTHING WRONG!"

This entire thing is hopeless. I am going to try to adopt George Carlins view on politics and the human condition.

And then there are some who tend to be engage in hyperbole from time to time.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Jacob on June 27, 2022, 12:35:13 PM
While it's obviously interesting to diagnose the the various problems of the activist left - and a hugely enjoyable activity for some - I personally think a better use of time is figuring out what action you can take to improve things. And I don't mean in a moral superiority way - "this thing is bad and I'm not doing it, so I'm one of the good guys" - but in an organizational way, even if on a small level.

"We're fucked, and it's because those other people are idiots" is not, I don't think, going to make a difference for the better. In fact in my experience it's a pretty effective technique to derail progress.

Taking positive action of whatever kind, linking up with like-minded individuals, attempting to influence the political process, helping those who need help, persuading those who can be persuaded, finding ways to encourage those who need encouragement, influencing the political process through active participation, and encouraging more people like you to do the same - those things are all hard work, often thankless, but also what actually makes the difference in the long run.

Insofar as the activist left has a problem it's that too few people are doing that, and too many people are focused on how those other people are terrible.

There's a bit too, I think, where the right wing media machine is very very good at finding flaws, inconsistencies, and tension points and magnifying and them massively as wedge points. And where there are no real flaws, inventing them. But while that is a problem, there's little to nothing the Left can do about it, so there's not much use in dwelling on the subject.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Josquius on June 28, 2022, 03:42:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 27, 2022, 07:55:45 AM"Damn, I just don't understand how the progressives and the left loses so much! We represent the views of the majority of people, and yet the fucking crazy right wingers still win so many elections and get so much power? How is that so???"

People point out all kinds of things that the left does to shoot themselves in the foot from embrace of cancel culture, identity politics, inability to effectively use power when they have it, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., fucking ETC.

"NOOOOOOOO! THAT CANNOT BE! THAT IS JUST RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA AND LIES LIES LIES! THE LEFT DOESN"T DO NOTHING WRONG!"

This entire thing is hopeless. I am going to try to adopt George Carlins view on politics and the human condition.

I don't see any of that on this thread.

As to questioning right wing takes on the problems of the left - that doesn't mean the left is perfect. Merely that the problems are different.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: Berkut on June 28, 2022, 09:50:16 AM
:beer:
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: viper37 on June 30, 2022, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2022, 07:43:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?

Unlike say the fundamentalist Christian Right?
I had Quebec and Canada in mind, they're not exactly a political force to be reckoned with.  But Trudeau's using the same codes: "think of the children" to defend all his crazyness.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: crazy canuck on June 30, 2022, 09:03:17 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 30, 2022, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2022, 07:43:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 25, 2022, 02:40:44 AMAlways fascinating when right wingers can only view the left through a right wing frame.
Can you deny the left's tendancy to take the moral high ground?

Unlike say the fundamentalist Christian Right?
I had Quebec and Canada in mind, they're not exactly a political force to be reckoned with.  But Trudeau's using the same codes: "think of the children" to defend all his crazyness.

I don't know about Quebec, but in Canada they are in some regions and particularly influential within the Conservative party.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: HVC on June 30, 2022, 09:05:12 AM
The prairie heartland might have a higher religious leaning, but they don't seem to have anywhere near the same sway as in the states.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: viper37 on June 30, 2022, 10:12:30 AM

And yet, even when one of them was party leader, they were totally ignored.
Title: Re: The problems with the activist left
Post by: crazy canuck on June 30, 2022, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: HVC on June 30, 2022, 09:05:12 AMThe prairie heartland might have a higher religious leaning, but they don't seem to have anywhere near the same sway as in the states.

You should visit the bible belt that exists in the Eastern Fraser Valley of BC extending into the Okanagan Valley.