Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

The implication a lot of low-IQ lefties make is if you couch it as "Israel vs Gaza" it "justified" killing the civilians of Gaza. That is abjectly stupid--the well established norms and laws around warfare make it clear: no intentional targeting of noncombatants, and if you expect that your targeted actions will incidentally harm them, you have to have some justifiable military reason for it. The U.S. literally had "ratios" of acceptable civilian casualties for different scenarios, for example if an airstrike was believed to be likely to kill Saddam Hussein, it was justified under their rubric to also kill up to 30 noncombatants incidental to that, there were different acceptable ratios for other targets.

My point in saying Israel vs. Gaza, is unlike al-Qaeda, which was nowhere even in the same galaxy as "the government of KSA", Gaza has a government. Hamas has ran the strip since 2008, and not from caves and tunnels. They have ministries. They have civilian police. They have road crews. They have utility workers. They have courts. They have political and military leaders.

No, they aren't recognized as a formal nationstate, but they meet the normal definitions of a country's leadership, little different than say, Taiwan.

Militia groups that operate in Gaza have had to accept Hamas sovereignty or they have been stamped out--there were traditional "tribal" militant groups in Gaza for example that had been around since before Hamas took over that were largely disarmed because they didn't play ball.

Gaza is a small country that is ran by Hamas. It really isn't that complicated, and it is a reasonable way to discuss the conflict.

[Tamas]

When bin Laden's cohorts attacked America, it didn't create a state of war between Saudi Arabia and the United States.  It didn't even create one between the US and Afghanistan although a de facto one eventually developed out of the incident.

Bin Laden in 2001 having similar levels of de facto governmental powers over either Saud Arabia or Afghanistan as Hamas do over Gaza is an interesting take.

[Josquius]

Gaza and Israel are fine things to say. Hamas does have pretty firm rule over gaza.
It's when people say Palestine and Israel over the current fighting that people are clearly talking nonsense.

[Tamas]

Gaza and Israel are fine things to say. Hamas does have pretty firm rule over gaza.
It's when people say Palestine and Israel over the current fighting that people are clearly talking nonsense.

Fair although I haven't seen it referenced as Palestine vs Israel anywhere.

[crazy canuck]

When bin Laden's cohorts attacked America, it didn't create a state of war between Saudi Arabia and the United States.  It didn't even create one between the US and Afghanistan although a de facto one eventually developed out of the incident.  The raid on Entebbe didn't create a state of war between Israel and Uganda.  Neither NATO nor its constituent nations went to war with Serbia in 90s despite a fair amount of explosions and dying.  These are a few examples; it's easy to come up with many more.  Not every armed conflict is a good fit for the standard model of state warfare.

The Russia-Ukraine war fits neatly into state vs state war between two sovereigns but not every armed conflict does and the current ME mess is one that does not.  Hamas is not a de jure government and Gaza is not a de jure state, and the "de factos on the ground" are muddled.  The involvement of disparate militias and resistance groups - from Hezbollah to the Houthis to the [insert Iranian sponsored milita of the week here] - none of which constitute recognized governments of recognized states, doesn't help clarify matters.

As for the civilians in Gaza, they are civilians regardless of how you categorize the conflict. As a signatory to some international agreements on the treatment of civilians in war, in accordance with Israeli law, and in accordance with the IDF's own manuals, Israel and its forces have obligations to them, regardless of whether they are fighting an interstate war, a police action, or a Zippitydoodah.  That Hamas is on the other side is relevant for that analysis only because Hamas' practices of deliberately blurring civilian-militant distinctions, perfidy, and using civilian property and infrastructure for military purposes complicates Israel's ability to conduct operations while minimizing civilian casualties.  But the rules are still the rules.

I would very much like to steal this for other purposes.  But I may edit out reference to the Zippitydoodah form of war.

[crazy canuck]

The implication a lot of low-IQ lefties

You are a Trump speech writer aren't you.  Come on don't be modest.  You can tell us.

[DGuller]

Gaza and Israel are fine things to say. Hamas does have pretty firm rule over gaza.
It's when people say Palestine and Israel over the current fighting that people are clearly talking nonsense.

I agree.  I also think it's nonsense when they refer to it as the Israeli-Bhutan war.

[grumbler]

The implication a lot of low-IQ lefties

You are a Trump speech writer aren't you.  Come on don't be modest.  You can tell us.

The low-IQ righties have a hard time remembering the five-letter-word "Hamas" so use the four-letter-word "Gaza." The fact that it is inaccurate doesn't matter to them because "inaccurate" is too big a word for them to comprehend.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Calling it a war against Hamas is not actually as accurate.

[Josquius]

Gaza and Israel are fine things to say. Hamas does have pretty firm rule over gaza.
It's when people say Palestine and Israel over the current fighting that people are clearly talking nonsense.

Fair although I haven't seen it referenced as Palestine vs Israel anywhere.

Weren't there some in this thread?
I've certainly seen it about.

[The Minsky Moment]

If we are concerned about strict accuracy, then Israel clearly is not at war with Gaza, because Gaza does not exist as a political entity.  It is part of Israeli occupied territory and subject to Israeli jurisdiction.  That Israel for some years has chosen not to exercise certain aspects of that jurisdiction over local matters doesn't change that. And to the extent Israel agreed to relinquish such jurisdiction, it did so in favor of the internationally recognized Palestinian National Authority, not Hamas.

Not every conflict fits into clear and precise legal categories.  Real life is more complicated than the idealized models of state sovereignty and international conflict.

[crazy canuck]

The implication a lot of low-IQ lefties

You are a Trump speech writer aren't you.  Come on don't be modest.  You can tell us.

The low-IQ righties have a hard time remembering the five-letter-word "Hamas" so use the four-letter-word "Gaza." The fact that it is inaccurate doesn't matter to them because "inaccurate" is too big a word for them to comprehend.

They also seem to have a memory defect of some sort.  They can't recall events from October 8, 2023 when Israel declared war on Hamas.

The alternative is they do remember

If we are concerned about strict accuracy, then Israel clearly is not at war with Gaza, because Gaza does not exist as a political entity.  It is part of Israeli occupied territory and subject to Israeli jurisdiction.  That Israel for some years has chosen not to exercise certain aspects of that jurisdiction over local matters doesn't change that. And to the extent Israel agreed to relinquish such jurisdiction, it did so in favor of the internationally recognized Palestinian National Authority, not Hamas.

Not every conflict fits into clear and precise legal categories.  Real life is more complicated than the idealized models of state sovereignty and international conflict.

Also if accuracy is important, Israel declared war against Hamas, not Gaza.

[OttoVonBismarck]

If we are concerned about strict accuracy, then Israel clearly is not at war with Gaza, because Gaza does not exist as a political entity.  It is part of Israeli occupied territory and subject to Israeli jurisdiction.  That Israel for some years has chosen not to exercise certain aspects of that jurisdiction over local matters doesn't change that. And to the extent Israel agreed to relinquish such jurisdiction, it did so in favor of the internationally recognized Palestinian National Authority, not Hamas.

Not every conflict fits into clear and precise legal categories.  Real life is more complicated than the idealized models of state sovereignty and international conflict.

Actually the status of the territory is not even legally established--the UN Partition Plan for Palestine was accepted by Israel, but no Arab countries, and there was a war followed by an armistice. The actual borders have never had a full, international legal resolution. It has been treated as Egyptian at times, later Israeli, but it is has never been formally settled.

[OttoVonBismarck]

They also seem to have a memory defect of some sort.  They can't recall events from October 8, 2023 when Israel declared war on Hamas.

So you are accepting, then, that Israel has unilateral authority to determine Palestinian statehood? Israel's position is there is no Palestine, I take it you agree with that?

[crazy canuck]

They also seem to have a memory defect of some sort.  They can't recall events from October 8, 2023 when Israel declared war on Hamas.

So you are accepting, then, that Israel has unilateral authority to determine Palestinian statehood? Israel's position is there is no Palestine, I take it you agree with that?

At some point you should just acknowledge Israel is not at war with Gaza.