Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Tamas]

I don't really care who shot first because obviously neither side was going to not resume hostilities and both would have an interest in claiming the other side resumed first.

My original point was about maintaining a veneer of impartiality. Which the Guardian has lost nearly all interest in when it comes to this, and they are making me question why I bother reading them between such reporting, the Owen Jones and Simon Jenkins publications, and tbe one per four hours pan-Muslim wailings published.

Mainly I'm not sure what is a better UK outlet to look at.

Yeah.

[viper37]

U.S. to impose visa bans soon on Israeli extremist settlers for West Bank violence

"I have been emphatic with Israel's leaders that extremist violence against Palestinians in the West Bank must stop and that those committing the violence must be held accountable. The United States is prepared to take our own steps, including issuing visa bans against extremists attacking civilians in the West Bank," Biden wrote.

The State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters, said Washington wanted Israel to prosecute perpetrators but had yet to see such a step. The bans could come in the next few weeks, the official said.

Daily settler attacks have more than doubled, U.N. figures show, since Hamas, which controls the coastal enclave of Gaza to Israel's southwest, killed 1,200 Israelis and took about 240 hostage. Israel has since bombed and invaded Gaza, killing more than 15,000 people.

It seems the US is seeing something others are still too blind to see.

[Valmy]

Especially since we have so many goofy religious cults in the US. Having to treat all of them with inherent respect would be a lot to ask.

All people who are X religion are evil.

If that is allowed in the US, you might want to rethink that.

It is allowed. You may have noticed but we allow all kinds of pretty gross opinions down here.

But I was speaking solely from an ethical point of view. I think it is fine to criticize religions, because as I said we have so many ridiculous religions it would be quite challenging not to, but you shouldn't go after the members of those religions. Not generally anyway.

I am aware the US allows what would be considered hate speech elsewhere.  I simply note you might want to consider the wisdom of that.

But more than to the point it is contrary to our human rights code, both federal and provincial.

It just gets treated as trolling in this space and that is what makes me think about the wisdom of continuing to be a member of this community.

Well don't complain to me. I lack moderation powers.

[viper37]

I don't really care who shot first because obviously neither side was going to not resume hostilities and both would have an interest in claiming the other side resumed first.

My original point was about maintaining a veneer of impartiality. Which the Guardian has lost nearly all interest in when it comes to this, and they are making me question why I bother reading them between such reporting, the Owen Jones and Simon Jenkins publications, and tbe one per four hours pan-Muslim wailings published.

Mainly I'm not sure what is a better UK outlet to look at.

The Daily Telegraph

[chipwich]

A Canadian has no more business speaking to an American on free speech than a lion might tell an eagle how to fly.

[OttoVonBismarck]

This whole line of discussion about "Muslims being evil" is frankly horseshit.

This is the bullshit the left has been promoting for decades to try and make excuses for Islam and its many extremists.

It is a tried, and tired, playbook.

1. Link "respect for Islam" with things like racial justice, trying to frame it as "being supportive of brown people" (ignoring may Muslims are in all senses of the term, "white", including many Palestinians and Arabs in general who frequently identify as White in countries like the U.S. that track that in their census--and even more obviously groups like Turks, Iranians etc.)

2. Try to equate hating Islam with hating people for an immutable characteristic, like race.

3. Try to promulgate a fake value that it is a human rights requirement to "respect" a religion. This has lead to some pretty terrible policies coming out in places like Sweden (which banned the burning of a fucking book over it.)

Let's be quite fucking clear--Muslims in any free country should be allowed to freely practice and exercise their religion, and to engage in religious speech and expression.

There is no legal, and absolutely no moral requirement anyone respect a religion.

There are many crazy religions out there--if a religion teaches that Adolf Hitler was God and all Jews must be killed, that religion is evil. People who adhere to that religion are evil.

I believe the tenets of Islam are intrinsically evil, hence anyone who adheres to those tenets is also intrinsically evil.

By the way--as a Christian, I have heard critiques of my religion my entire life, including by atheist activists who sometimes make similar arguments about Christianity. And you know what? That's fine. People are absolutely entitled to say my religion is evil. People are allowed their opinions. If they genuinely believe the tenets of the Catholic Church are evil, they are correct to say all adherent Catholics are evil. That isn't bigotry, it isn't a human rights issue.

I obviously take issue and strongly disagree with that opinion, but people having negative views of someone else's religious faith is not exactly new--and I'd far prefer people express those negative opinions ala Christopher Hitchens than in the manner of the guys who did the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

[Tamas]

Yeah my biggest gripe with accusations of "Islamophobia" is that actual critiques of the religion (not talking about racists being racists and using Islam the same way they use crime statistics or whatever) are nothing Christianity haven't had to endure for 60 years at least, or quite a bit more. And it was a bloody centuries-long fight to get to the point where you can criticise a religion. We shouldn't be giving up that hard-fought ground. We would not give it up for rednecks in Missouri or whatever, why give it up for backward Muslims? There's plenty of Muslims who can be reasonable about their own religion and criticism of it like most Christians do so why give the radicals more ground? Because they are not white?

[Josquius]

Fuuuuck.
Wrote a long reply and the forum ate it.
To try to remember... So many right wing fallacies there.

"Islamophobia isn't racist because Islam isn't a race" - such a transparent dodge.
Arabs consider themselves white? Well that means people can't possibly be racist against them then?
The vast majority of islamophobia in the west and racism are clearly drawn from the same place.
If we imagine a silly theoretical where everything in the middle east is exactly the same except the majority have a non Muslim religion do you really think everyone would be cool with it?
Post 9-11 islamophobia is a pretty clear tool racists use to try and chip away at the most exposed minority. This is where most hate against Islam you're likely to run into comes from.

Also the whole "criticising Christians is OK! Double standards! " - it's not. Criticism of Christianity gets called out far more than islamophobia.
Also needs noting the difference between criticism and hate.
Put together a properly researched argument about why some aspect of Islam is bad - this is fine. But that's not what most islamophobia is. It's ignorant misinformed nonsense.
Additionally there is the factor of people taking aim at their own group vs a powerful outsider shitting on an other. Athiests in the west are largely from a Christian background.

Also. Forgot a bit - a religion with a thousand years of history and many millions of followers does deserve some level of basic respect where that cult formed last Tuesday with 10 followers does not. Pretty common sense why this is so.

[OttoVonBismarck]

"Islamophobia isn't racist because Islam isn't a race" - such a transparent dodge.

Islam isn't a race, full stop. That isn't a dodge, it's a simple fucking fact. The entire rest of your post is predicated on you posting things you know are factually untrue. This is the typical leftist playbook on Islam apologia.

[Razgovory]

Also. Forgot a bit - a religion with a thousand years of history and many millions of followers does deserve some level of basic respect where that cult formed last Tuesday with 10 followers does not. Pretty common sense why this is so.

Could you elaborate?

[viper37]

Yeah my biggest gripe with accusations of "Islamophobia" is that actual critiques of the religion (not talking about racists being racists and using Islam the same way they use crime statistics or whatever) are nothing Christianity haven't had to endure for 60 years at least, or quite a bit more. And it was a bloody centuries-long fight to get to the point where you can criticise a religion. We shouldn't be giving up that hard-fought ground. We would not give it up for rednecks in Missouri or whatever, why give it up for backward Muslims? There's plenty of Muslims who can be reasonable about their own religion and criticism of it like most Christians do so why give the radicals more ground? Because they are not white?

I honestly don't know where that line of discussion comes from.

OvB says he hates all Muslism and Palestinians should be deported from Israel to make room fro the Jewish population.
Raz approves of the solution implemented by Israel to clear the land of the Palestinians.
Other pro-Israelis agree it's a sensible solution.

Where's the cricitism of the religion in there?

If a man enters a gay club and starts shooting at people, is it free speech or homophobia?
If a suicide bomber targets a Church, is it criticism of Christiniaty?

If an Imam declares that all Jews are vermin and should be eradicated from the Earth, do we all agree here that's a valid criticism of Judaism based on the holy scriptures?  I guess not...

So, why should saying the same about Muslims be "criticism of the religion" ?

This is the part I never understood.

If an Israeli says the Palestinians should all be killed or deported, it's assessing Israel's right to defend itself.
If a Palestinian says all Israelis should be killed or deported, it's a proof these people are all evil.

Fuck it.

I reject both of these notions.

[Razgovory]

Raz approves of the solution implemented by Israel to clear the land of the Palestinians.

My memory is failing in my old age, could you show me where I posted that?

[viper37]

Raz approves of the solution implemented by Israel to clear the land of the Palestinians.

My memory is failing in my old age, could you show me where I posted that?

Show me where you disagreed with Israel's current policies of expelling Palestinians from their homes.

[Razgovory]

Raz approves of the solution implemented by Israel to clear the land of the Palestinians.

My memory is failing in my old age, could you show me where I posted that?

Show me where you disagreed with Israel's current policies of expelling Palestinians from their homes.

Yeah, that's what I thought.  Don't slander me no more, got it?

[Tamas]

Yeah my biggest gripe with accusations of "Islamophobia" is that actual critiques of the religion (not talking about racists being racists and using Islam the same way they use crime statistics or whatever) are nothing Christianity haven't had to endure for 60 years at least, or quite a bit more. And it was a bloody centuries-long fight to get to the point where you can criticise a religion. We shouldn't be giving up that hard-fought ground. We would not give it up for rednecks in Missouri or whatever, why give it up for backward Muslims? There's plenty of Muslims who can be reasonable about their own religion and criticism of it like most Christians do so why give the radicals more ground? Because they are not white?

I honestly don't know where that line of discussion comes from.

OvB says he hates all Muslism and Palestinians should be deported from Israel to make room fro the Jewish population.
Raz approves of the solution implemented by Israel to clear the land of the Palestinians.
Other pro-Israelis agree it's a sensible solution.

Where's the cricitism of the religion in there?

To be fair it was a general observation of the state of things and not specifically a reaction to the posts here. Maybe it's different in the Americas but in the UK even criticism of the hijab -a symbol of female subservience- is labelled Islamophobia.