Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

Denigrating a religion is freedom of expression.

You said you hated all Muslisms.
That is hate speech.  You want to use freedom of expression to hide it, have it your way.  Don't complain if neo Nazis do the same with Jews.


 I don't mind denigrating crazy Muslisms, Jews and Christians myself.  I draw the line at condemning all worshippers of a single religion as being the same. Crazy Buddhists have been slaughtering Muslisms in Myanmar.
I am not convinced it is the opinion of all Buddhists that Muslisms should be wiped out from the face of the Earth.

[Barrister]

Denigrating a religion is freedom of expression. It should never be prohibited by law, and if Canada prohibits it, Canada is a fascist shit hole and should fuck off.

I'm a firm believer in a free society allowing freedom of religious practice, as long as those practices don't involve any degenerate physical activities that are against the societal good (FGM, animal sacrifice et al.) But I don't buy into the idea that religions deserve "inherent respect."

That is a matter of personal judgment to decide if you respect someone's opinions or not. Religious beliefs are just opinions, they aren't immutable characteristics. I say this as someone who is still religious--my religion is a matter of faith, and calling it stupid or dumb or even evil is and should be 100% protected expression.

The idea we should respect Islam is pernicious, evil, and stupid.

The idea is that you should respect muslims - that is people who believe in Islam.  You can say what you want about the religious validity of that faith.

Since you brought up Canada, here's the applicable law:

Public incitement of hatred

319 (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Wilful promotion of antisemitism

(2.1) Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

Marginal note:Defences — subsection (2.1)

(3.1) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2.1)

(a) if they establish that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, they expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds they believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, they intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of antisemitism toward Jews.

Marginal note:Forfeiture

(4) If a person is convicted of an offence under subsection (1), (2) or (2.1) or section 318, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.

Marginal note:Exemption from seizure of communication facilities

(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply, with any modifications that the circumstances require, to subsection (1), (2) or (2.1) or section 318.

Marginal note:Consent

(6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) or (2.1) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.

Marginal note:Definitions

(7) In this section,

communicating includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; (communiquer)

Holocaust means the planned and deliberate state-sponsored persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by the Nazis and their collaborators from 1933 to 1945; (Holocauste)

identifiable group has the same meaning as in section 318; (groupe identifiable)

public place includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied; (endroit public)

statements includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations. (déclarations)

So there are a lot of elements, and a lot of defences.  It is very rarely prosecuted - I've never seen a charge.

But lets go through the elements.  You hate to "incite hatred" against an "identifiable group" in a way that "is likely to lead to a breach of the peace".

[Admiral Yi]

My impression from what Yi said is that in that particular case the baby was not killed, because the Hamas fighters in question found baby killing abhorrent. If that is not true, then I misunderstood.

FYI it was a non Hamas group.

[crazy canuck]

Especially since we have so many goofy religious cults in the US. Having to treat all of them with inherent respect would be a lot to ask.

All people who are X religion are evil.

If that is allowed in the US, you might want to rethink that.

[crazy canuck]

Denigrating a religion is freedom of expression. It should never be prohibited by law, and if Canada prohibits it, Canada is a fascist shit hole and should fuck off.

I'm a firm believer in a free society allowing freedom of religious practice, as long as those practices don't involve any degenerate physical activities that are against the societal good (FGM, animal sacrifice et al.) But I don't buy into the idea that religions deserve "inherent respect."

That is a matter of personal judgment to decide if you respect someone's opinions or not. Religious beliefs are just opinions, they aren't immutable characteristics. I say this as someone who is still religious--my religion is a matter of faith, and calling it stupid or dumb or even evil is and should be 100% protected expression.

The idea we should respect Islam is pernicious, evil, and stupid.

The idea is that you should respect muslims - that is people who believe in Islam.  You can say what you want about the religious validity of that faith.

Since you brought up Canada, here's the applicable law:

Public incitement of hatred

319 (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Wilful promotion of antisemitism

(2.1) Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

Marginal note:Defences — subsection (2.1)

(3.1) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2.1)

(a) if they establish that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, they expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds they believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, they intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of antisemitism toward Jews.

Marginal note:Forfeiture

(4) If a person is convicted of an offence under subsection (1), (2) or (2.1) or section 318, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.

Marginal note:Exemption from seizure of communication facilities

(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply, with any modifications that the circumstances require, to subsection (1), (2) or (2.1) or section 318.

Marginal note:Consent

(6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) or (2.1) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.

Marginal note:Definitions

(7) In this section,

communicating includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; (communiquer)

Holocaust means the planned and deliberate state-sponsored persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by the Nazis and their collaborators from 1933 to 1945; (Holocauste)

identifiable group has the same meaning as in section 318; (groupe identifiable)

public place includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied; (endroit public)

statements includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations. (déclarations)

So there are a lot of elements, and a lot of defences.  It is very rarely prosecuted - I've never seen a charge.

But lets go through the elements.  You hate to "incite hatred" against an "identifiable group" in a way that "is likely to lead to a breach of the peace".

Add to that the violation of both the Canadian and Provincial Human Rights Codes.

[Valmy]

Especially since we have so many goofy religious cults in the US. Having to treat all of them with inherent respect would be a lot to ask.

All people who are X religion are evil.

If that is allowed in the US, you might want to rethink that.

It is allowed. You may have noticed but we allow all kinds of pretty gross opinions down here.

But I was speaking solely from an ethical point of view. I think it is fine to criticize religions, because as I said we have so many ridiculous religions it would be quite challenging not to, but you shouldn't go after the members of those religions. Not generally anyway.

[Jacob]

FYI it was a non Hamas group.

Thank you for the clarification.

But they participated in the attack orchestrated by Hamas on Oct 7th? Or was this a separate incident at some other place and time?

[Admiral Yi]

FYI it was a non Hamas group.

Thank you for the clarification.

But they participated in the attack orchestrated by Hamas on Oct 7th? Or was this a separate incident at some other place and time?

Same attack.

[Jacob]

Same attack.

Thank you.

[Iormlund]

I have to side with the gringos here.

Not wild about laws that can be used to stifle legitimate criticism of religion.

We have our own, very similar to the Canadian one.

[Admiral Yi]

I have no problem with laws that attempt to curb *hatred*.  I do believe however I should be free to express as much contempt, disrespect, or disapproval as i want against anyone.  And that's the problem with laws like Canada's.

[Razgovory]

Especially since we have so many goofy religious cults in the US. Having to treat all of them with inherent respect would be a lot to ask.

All people who are X religion are evil.

If that is allowed in the US, you might want to rethink that.

It may not be evil to worship Elon Musk but it is kinda dumb.

[viper37]

Especially since we have so many goofy religious cults in the US. Having to treat all of them with inherent respect would be a lot to ask.

All people who are X religion are evil.

If that is allowed in the US, you might want to rethink that.

It's allowed.  But saying it about Christians can cut you out of a lot of opportunities.

[viper37]

Not wild about laws that can be used to stifle legitimate criticism of religion.

They aren't used in that way.

Unless you count denial of the Holocaust as a legitimate criticism of Judaism.

[viper37]

Jew hating Americans, I supposed.  You can never trust the Dems to go along for the slaughter of Arabs when need be:
Blinken said to Israel to change strategy for southern Gaza