Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

The 700,000 Arabs who fled and who could have gone to any number of other places with large majority Arab populations.

[Threviel]

The jews going the other direction presumably left room enough...

[Valmy]

The jews going the other direction presumably left room enough...

The tons of Jews forced from their homes across West Asia and North Africa as a result of the creation of Israel seems like it should be a bigger deal than it seems to be treated. Especially when Israelis frequently get characterized as settlers like American pioneers settling the West or something. Something like half of all Israelis were already happily living in places across the region and were forced to leave. It is a weird thing where in reaction to Israel being created its enemies seemed to work to force as many Jews as possible to have to move there. I guess just to make the situation as bad as possible for all involved.

But likewise at least those Jews weren't forced into refugee camps for decades on end like the Palestinians have in places like Jordan so the fact that they are refugees tends to be forgotten as they have integrated into the rest of Israeli society (and those who could flee to places like France and the US).

[OttoVonBismarck]

Part of why they have been forgotten is they didn't establish terrorist groups in Israel that perpetuated 70 years of terror against civilians in Egypt, Jordan et al. The Palestinians have done that, essentially their situation is very analogous to the 12-13 million Germans who lost their ancestral homes. They lost a war, the Germans accepted the loss and decided to focus on building a good country.

The Palestinians never did, and decided to focus on living in abject misery forever instead of ever accept that a Jewish state can exist.

[Tamas]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/01/protesters-release-rodents-painted-colours-of-palestinian-flag-in-birmingham-mcdonalds

The link summarises itself 

[The Minsky Moment]

The Palestinians never did, and decided to focus on living in abject misery forever instead of ever accept that a Jewish state can exist.

Well the Germans had some decent options - the socialist paradise of East Germany or the corrupt lackey oligarchy of West Germany.  (Or was it the other way around? - I forget)

Seriously, the Palestinian refugees didn't have great options - most became Jordanians by default in 48, but no matter where they went in the Arab world, the regimes were more interested keeping them at arms length in refugee camps for political reasons then making real efforts to integrate the population.

The Palestinians have definitely gotten the short end of the stick for much of last 100 years but ascribing all responsibility for their plight to the evil colonialist Jews is a BS narrative.

[Barrister]

The Palestinians never did, and decided to focus on living in abject misery forever instead of ever accept that a Jewish state can exist.

Well the Germans had some decent options - the socialist paradise of East Germany or the corrupt lackey oligarchy of West Germany.  (Or was it the other way around? - I forget)

Seriously, the Palestinian refugees didn't have great options - most became Jordanians by default in 48, but no matter where they went in the Arab world, the regimes were more interested keeping them at arms length in refugee camps for political reasons then making real efforts to integrate the population.

The Palestinians have definitely gotten the short end of the stick for much of last 100 years but ascribing all responsibility for their plight to the evil colonialist Jews is a BS narrative.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from 1950-1967 the Palestinians living on the West Bank were considered full Jordanian citizens and Jordan had both de facto control over the west bank, but also claimed to have annexed it?

(the same does not appear to have been the case vis-a-vis Gaza and Egypt however)

6 day war changed all that and Jordan has since given up any claims on the West Bank so you can never go back to that situation...

[Valmy]

I am not sure actually. I just know there are still refugee camps with Palestinians in Jordan.

[The Minsky Moment]

6 day war changed all that and Jordan has since given up any claims on the West Bank so you can never go back to that situation...

Right the current situation started when Israel considered withdrawing and handing territory back to Jordan and the Jordanians said "no thanks".  And after Black September there was no going back.

[PJL]

Jordan is probably the one Arab country where I do have sympathy for regarding the whole Palestinian situation, given their history with them. They've played a poor hand well, especially since 1970. No mean feat when you have Israel to the west, Iraq to the east, Syria to the north and Saudi Arabia to the south.

[Admiral Yi]

Jordan is probably the one Arab country where I do have sympathy for regarding the whole Palestinian situation, given their history with them. They've played a poor hand well, especially since 1970. No mean feat when you have Israel to the west, Iraq to the east, Syria to the north and Saudi Arabia to the south.

Shows the value of a Georgetown University education. 

[grumbler]

I would make the argument that the current situation started when Israel refused, contrary to international humanitarian law, the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and UN General Assembly Resolution 194, refused to allow the vast majority of Palestinian refugees (many of them driven out by the IDF) to return to their homes for a host of specious reasons, including the reason that the Israeli position was that the Arab states should absorb the refugees, not Israel. 

[PJL]

Jordan is probably the one Arab country where I do have sympathy for regarding the whole Palestinian situation, given their history with them. They've played a poor hand well, especially since 1970. No mean feat when you have Israel to the west, Iraq to the east, Syria to the north and Saudi Arabia to the south.

Shows the value of a Georgetown University education. 

I don't get the reference?

[Admiral Yi]

I don't get the reference?

The current king got a degree there.

It's a stretch, I know.

[PJL]

I don't get the reference?

The current king got a degree there.

It's a stretch, I know.

Ah, I thought it was in reference to his father, King Hussein. Talking of which, been reading his Wiki page, and although I was vaguely aware of Jordan's precarious situation, I had no idea how bad-ass he was. Manage to survive despite enemies from within Jordan and from all 4 neighbouring countries at various points, had more assassination attempts than most (like once a year for the first 20 years at least). Up there with Tito IMO.