Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

Dude stop posting podcast links. I'm not listening to some imbecile's hour long podcast to hear the same rehashed arguments you have made. Civilians die in war, there is no meaningful evidence the IDF is systemically violating the laws of war. All the podcast links in the world don't change that, the podcast doesn't have meaningful information we can't get from all the reading we've already done on this.

It wasn't for you. I don't think this level of discussion is for you.

[crazy canuck]

They sure ain't targeting only Hamas sites though.

I would think that Israeli targeting data would be pretty highly classified, so you can understand my skepticism to you claim to know what Israel is targeting and that some targets are not associated with Hamas.

And they've admitted they don't make any distinction between a civilian and a Hamas supporter.

Source?

Well, they targeted university in The Israeli Authorities justified it as a military target, because they claimed militance were being trained at the University.

It would sure help if people wouldn't  just reflexively defend the actions of the Israelis. What they are doing is horrific.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Dude stop posting podcast links. I'm not listening to some imbecile's hour long podcast to hear the same rehashed arguments you have made. Civilians die in war, there is no meaningful evidence the IDF is systemically violating the laws of war. All the podcast links in the world don't change that, the podcast doesn't have meaningful information we can't get from all the reading we've already done on this.

It wasn't for you. I don't think this level of discussion is for you.

Correct, someone making childish appeals to authority and random drive-by podcast links with no supporting factual assertions is a tad below my level, but it suits you well.

[Valmy]

Israel must do something

Before I listen, does he say what this something is?

[DGuller]

Dude stop posting podcast links. I'm not listening to some imbecile's hour long podcast to hear the same rehashed arguments you have made. Civilians die in war, there is no meaningful evidence the IDF is systemically violating the laws of war. All the podcast links in the world don't change that, the podcast doesn't have meaningful information we can't get from all the reading we've already done on this.

It wasn't for you. I don't think this level of discussion is for you.

Correct, someone making childish appeals to authority and random drive-by podcast links with no supporting factual assertions is a tad below my level, but it suits you well.

I don't think it's for anyone.  Who the fuck would listen to a long-ass podcast in a forum discussion?  "Here, go listen to some dude I claim is the authority for an hour to see why you're wrong"?  What's next, telling people who think Japanese surrendered because of atomic bomb to go read some 300-page book?

[viper37]

They sure ain't targeting only Hamas sites though.

I would think that Israeli targeting data would be pretty highly classified, so you can understand my skepticism to you claim to know what Israel is targeting and that some targets are not associated with Hamas.

Unless Hamas is everywhere in Gaza, it's hard to believe the IDF is only targeting military sites.  I mean, it's a possibility.  But I doubt it.

And they've admitted they don't make any distinction between a civilian and a Hamas supporter.

Source?

I've already posted it twice.

Latest one
Israeli President Isaac Herzog said this week that, as far as the military is concerned, there is little difference between Gaza's civilian population and Hamas, which has governed the besieged territory since 2007. "It's not true this rhetoric about civilians [being] not aware, not involved," Herzog said in the middle of an unprecedented Israeli bombing campaign in retaliation for Hamas's massacre of Israeli civilians last week. "They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat."

[grumbler]

Well, they targeted university in The Israeli Authorities justified it as a military target, because they claimed militance were being trained at the University.

The Israelis claimed to have targeted it because it served as a training, production, and operations center for Hamas militants.

It would sure help if people wouldn't  just reflexively defend the actions of the Israelis. What they are doing is horrific.

It would sure help is people wouldn't just reflexively assume that Israelis are stupids who bomb buildings with scarce military resources just to serve as cartoon villains.

[Valmy]

Unless Hamas is everywhere in Gaza

I mean Gaza is pretty tiny.

It would sure help is people wouldn't just reflexively assume that Israelis are stupids who bomb buildings with scarce military resources just to serve as cartoon villains.

Well that certainly is the thing. We have people claiming Israel's objectives are genocidal but surely Israel is well aware they could never achieve anything like that even if they wanted to. The rest of the world wouldn't let them. So what exactly is their motivation for mass murder? All they will end up doing is empowering Hamas and weakening themselves. That would be nuts.

But again they have to do something...but what? I don't know. They seem very fucked in this situation.

[grumbler]

Unless Hamas is everywhere in Gaza, it's hard to believe the IDF is only targeting military sites.  I mean, it's a possibility.  But I doubt it.

Unless Israel is bombing everything in Gaza, it is hard to believe that Israel is simply dropping bombs wherever for whatever reason.  It is possible, but I doubt it.

I've already posted it twice.

Latest one
Israeli President Isaac Herzog said this week that, as far as the military is concerned, there is little difference between Gaza's civilian population and Hamas, which has governed the besieged territory since 2007. "It's not true this rhetoric about civilians [being] not aware, not involved," Herzog said in the middle of an unprecedented Israeli bombing campaign in retaliation for Hamas's massacre of Israeli civilians last week. "They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat."

That source does not say that "they [Israelis] don't make any distinction between a civilian and a Hamas supporter," it says that it (the Intercept) believes that the Israeli military sees "little difference."  Herzog is not the one saying that.  Maybe choose your sources better and then read them more carefully?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Dude stop posting podcast links. I'm not listening to some imbecile's hour long podcast to hear the same rehashed arguments you have made. Civilians die in war, there is no meaningful evidence the IDF is systemically violating the laws of war. All the podcast links in the world don't change that, the podcast doesn't have meaningful information we can't get from all the reading we've already done on this.

It wasn't for you. I don't think this level of discussion is for you.

Correct, someone making childish appeals to authority and random drive-by podcast links with no supporting factual assertions is a tad below my level, but it suits you well.

I don't think it's for anyone.  Who the fuck would listen to a long-ass podcast in a forum discussion?  "Here, go listen to some dude I claim is the authority for an hour to see why you're wrong"?  What's next, telling people who think Japanese surrendered because of atomic bomb to go read some 300-page book?

I mean what's funny is I'm a NYT subscriber so I actually listen to Ezra's pod sometimes, but I'm not going to listen to a whole podcast episode to find out what point CC thinks he is making.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Herzog is not the one saying that.  Maybe choose your sources better and then read them more carefully?

That would be a little too far removed from "constantly and uncritically bash Israel over everything" for certain people.

[viper37]

They sure ain't targeting only Hamas sites though.

I would think that Israeli targeting data would be pretty highly classified, so you can understand my skepticism to you claim to know what Israel is targeting and that some targets are not associated with Hamas.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

They're not that classified.  They tell Palestinians to evacuate toward a specific area, and then they proceed to bomb said area as well as the rest.

[viper37]

Same difference.  German officers sought terms, they were offered unconditional surrender.

And the Palestinians have been offered many deals, shitty ones but still deals, they just haven't accepted them.

Still better than unconditional surrender.

Germany was left with a country for its people.  There were no talks of relocating Germans elsewhere, or splitting the country in zones where there would be British colonies, American colonies, Russian colonies, French colonies, etc where Germans could not live.

If Israel was willing to let Palestinian lives in Israel as citizens of Israel with equal rights, we would not be having this discussion.  But that's not something they want, obviously.  They want a Jewish State, not another Arab state with a strong Jewish population.

The best deal Palestinian were ever offered was a vague promise that Israel would eventually, maybe give them some parcel of non attached lands and call it a country.  Clinton said Arafat was a fool to refuse this.  I remain unconvinced of that.

First of all, that proposed state was non viable.  Second, there were no guarantee Israel would stop colonization, they never agreed to respect the borders of that new state.  They never stop the colonization process before and  afterward, except to pull out of Gaza to push further into the less dense West Bank, where the PA was weakened by the Hamas takeover of said Gaza.  Third, even with all these conditions met, there's no guarantee Arafat would not have been killed for accepting a non-contiguous state, just as Rabin was killed by his side following the inflammatory remarks of Bibi, among others.

[grumbler]

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

They're not that classified.  They tell Palestinians to evacuate toward a specific area, and then they proceed to bomb said area as well as the rest.

Didn't see any Israeli targeting data in the referenced article.  Maybe you can try again with a relevant source this time?

[viper37]

Dude stop posting podcast links. I'm not listening to some imbecile's hour long podcast to hear the same rehashed arguments you have made. Civilians die in war, there is no meaningful evidence the IDF is systemically violating the laws of war. All the podcast links in the world don't change that, the podcast doesn't have meaningful information we can't get from all the reading we've already done on this.

Basically, you don't want to know if the IDF is violating the laws of war.