Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

I see. So I don't use the exact wording the BBC do thus I'm wrong. OK. If it's one of those discussions fair enough. I really don't care.

Nah fuck you dude, being like "oh this is terror bombing" which explicitly means you are saying the BBC is accusing Israel of mass scale state terrorism, and then being called on it and you go "oh they didn't use that exact term."

The fuck?

Yes they did. It's the key reason why they surrendered.

I see we've entered into "history according to Josq and no one else" land.

[HVC]

Yes they did. It's the key reason why they surrendered.

I see we've entered into "history according to Josq and no one else" land.

He did spend a few years in Japan, and they have an "interesting" view of their own history. Is this a Japanese thing, or a Josq thing?

[Threviel]

Ohh, look: The BBC says Josq is wrong. They don't actually say that verbatim or even at all, but I pinkie promise that's what they mean!

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yes they did. It's the key reason why they surrendered.

I see we've entered into "history according to Josq and no one else" land.

He did spend a few years in Japan, and they have an "interesting" view of their own history. Is this a Japanese thing, or a Josq thing?

Belief that Soviet entry into the war was an important factor deciding to surrender? Lots of historians believe it, I certainly think it was a factor.

Belief that it was decisive? Lot of historians believe that, but it isn't a consensus.

Belief that the USSR was imminently going to land in Hokkaido and that is why Hirohito surrendered when his "Big Six" were not able to come to a consensus? I have never seen anything like credible evidence to that effect. Maybe a few people thought the Russians might invade Hokkaido but I don't see that it was a widespread belief. They were more concerned as far as I can tell in that the USSR entering the war meant their chances of being able to hold onto possession on mainland Asia went down to zero.

[OttoVonBismarck]

This is a pretty condemnatory take on British behavior in the street:

The Telegraph
Opinion
British society will pay a terrible price for indulging extremism
Nick Timothy
Sun, October 29, 2023 at 5:30 PM EDT·5 min read

The most despicable thing about the rolling anti-Israel protests in London is that they first began not in response to Israeli military action, but to the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7.

For three consecutive weekends now, around 100,000 people have lined the streets of London to show their opposition to Israel. In the words of Lord Austin, who witnessed Saturday's march, there were "lots of signs calling for Israel to be eradicated. [But I] didn't see any calling for peace, a two-state solution, Gaza to be freed from Hamas or hostages to be taken."

For this is about hatred, not peace. Many of those attending the protests are unembarrassed about supporting the rape and murder of Israeli civilians. Some were content to cry "Allahu akbar!" and chant for "jihad", a term that the police are eager to explain might sometimes mean a peaceful inner struggle. Some shouted "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free", a genocidal demand to destroy the state of Israel and cleanse the territory of its Jews.

Others were more precise. Some called for a new intifada, like the last one which killed more than a thousand civilians in terror attacks on buses, nightclubs and restaurants. Some chanted, "Khaybar Khaybar ya yahud jaish al Mohammed Sa'ar Yaud", citing a famous massacre and warning Jews that "the army of Mohammed is coming". Some protesters carried fake dead babies soaked in blood.

The desire to play things down, to convince ourselves that this is all about a quarrel in a far away country, might be understandable, but it is profoundly wrong. The people chanting this hatred are almost certainly mostly British nationals. They are doing so in such huge numbers that the police have opted not to enforce the law for fear of wider public disorder. And while the hatred for now is targeted at Jews, it is also meant for the rest of us. One man yelled, "white trash!" at those who lined up to protect the Cenotaph from protesters. One speaker promised an intifada "from London to Gaza".

And this is just what we can see on our streets. We now know the truth about the systematic sexual abuse of vulnerable white girls by gangs of mainly Muslim men, inculcated with a belief that these dehumanised "kuffar" were worthless. We know about the Batley school teacher who, two and a half years on, remains in hiding with his family after he showed pupils a depiction of Mohammed. We know about the show trial, held in a mosque with the police participating, when a Wakefield schoolboy was accused of desecrating a Koran. In all these cases, state organisations themselves were complicit in criminality, threats and violence.

In the past few weeks, video footage from Liverpool, Bradford, Birmingham, Blackburn, Nottingham, Greenwich, London, Leeds and Cheadle show imams saying prayers for the "mujahideen" and victory for the "heroes" of Hamas. They called Jews "the guardians of Satan". They have asked Allah to: "wipe out the unbelievers"; "destroy [Jews'] houses and homes"; "purify and protect al-Aqsa from the usurper Jews"; and "get rid of the unjust Jews. Count them in numbers, and kill them entirely. Don't spare one of them."

There are many other such examples, including praise for martyrdom as a "win-win" and a sermon, at Lewisham Islamic Centre, from the resident imam Shakeel Begg, who in 2016 failed in a libel case against the BBC, which had labelled him an extremist. Most of the venues for these sermons are charities, and many, such as East London Mosque and Green Lane Mosque in Birmingham, receive millions of pounds in taxpayer funding, supposedly for providing community services.

Once, when terrorism struck here in the UK, we had anguished debates about these problems. More recently, however, we have become inured. Everything quickly moves on. When Sir David Amess was killed by an Islamist, MPs chose to discuss abuse on social media rather than the ideology that drove his murderer. When attacks occur, we are always told to wait until a conviction to debate the motive. Predictably, the debate never comes.

Meanwhile Islamist radicals, and organisations often set up and supported by foreign governments, have learned to exploit the absurdities of our modern politics. They operate the mechanics of our identity corporatism and competitive victimhood with skill. The Crown Prosecution Service, which helped to decide not to prosecute those chanting "jihad" last week, is advised on hate crime by the chair of Finsbury Park Mosque, who has praised Hamas as "martyrs of the resistance". From the military to the prison service, the public sector is full of such examples.

This extremism, and the radical diversity of our society, with its ethnic tensions and imported hatreds, means the assumptions that informed traditional British policy – pragmatic, informal, light-touch – no longer hold. The diminished commitment to shared norms and our weaker common identity means there is less social trust to sustain our freedoms in the conventional way. The sooner we realise this, the less painful will be the changes we face.

We need a more muscular approach to end this culture of domestic separatism: in immigration, law enforcement, and public policy across the board. The police and CPS must be made to uphold the law, but the law should be tightened to clamp down on incitement, hate speech and extremism. There should be a register of imams and mosques, with unacceptable behaviour leading to preaching bans and closures.

TV channels that broadcast hatred must be shut. Charities that espouse extremist belief should be closed down. Foreigners who spread Islamist ideology should be deported. The burqa should be banned in public places, and the hijab banned for school children. Islamic supplementary schools should be regulated properly. The dual jurisdiction of our national law and sharia law must end, with sharia marriages criminalised. Public funding for mosques and Islamic centres must cease.

Some will say this amounts to picking on the Islamic faith, but the problem we face emanates from the Islamic world. Nothing will change until we tell ourselves the truth – and start to act accordingly.

[Josquius]

I see. So I don't use the exact wording the BBC do thus I'm wrong. OK. If it's one of those discussions fair enough. I really don't care.

Nah fuck you dude, being like "oh this is terror bombing" which explicitly means you are saying the BBC is accusing Israel of mass scale state terrorism, and then being called on it and you go "oh they didn't use that exact term."

The fuck?

I apologise for using one of your trigger words to describe Israels poorly targeted mass bombing campaign that has levelled city blocks and caused vast numbers of civilian deaths, and sowed fear and helplessness amongst others.

Yes they did. It's the key reason why they surrendered.

I see we've entered into "history according to Josq and no one else" land.

Except. You know. Contemporary sources. Many prominent historians who have looked at the topic. A view that is increasingly becoming established as the accepted one by those who bother to look at the facts.
The atomic bombs single handedly won the war version of things is believed by few with any actual historic interest these days.

[Valmy]

You're the naiive one here. You seem to think Hamas are comic book villains who seriously believe they can actually beat Israel in a war and chuck all the Jews into the sea, rather than just the rulers of a bantustan in the corner of the country.
There's absolutely no way they actually think they can get any ethnic cleansing of land outside gaza outside of this.

That sounded like defending them to me.

LOL.
So this is the level of your zealotry is it?
Saying that Hamas aren't so stupid as to believe they actually stood a chance of conquering Israel with their raid and that they clearly had some other plan than winning a straight conventional  war = defending Hamas. Bad bad.

Hamas does think they will eventually defeat Israel. Certainly not with this raid but eventually. I wasn't aware anybody in this thread was saying that Hamas was sure that this raid was going to lead to final victory.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I apologise for using one of your trigger words to describe Israels poorly targeted mass bombing campaign that has levelled city blocks and caused vast numbers of civilian deaths, and sowed fear and helplessness amongst others.

Let's be clear on what you did--you claimed a respected Western media outlet had labeled the IDF's campaign as a terrorist act, which it had not. When called on it you fell to the defense of pretending words have no meaning and when caught in a blatant untruth, it "doesn't matter." You lied about the stance of the BBC to promote your own preferred, frankly hateful, anti-Israel narrative. Then you lashed out and said it was a "trigger word" as if that insulates you from criticism for making the false claim.

[Threviel]

And

Yeah.... I'm really coming around to the fuck Israel point of view.
There remain cunts on both sides. But on the Israeli supporting side the genocidal views seem to be increasingly the plurality.
Combined with the footage coming out this does not engender sympathy for the side with all the power.

I haven't really seen this genocidal view from Israels side anywhere, but I don't really go around on too many sites. I don't doubt that it exists. With regards to Languish the discussion has been very neutral I think. I struggle to remember any poster with a genocidal view on Palestinians. We might have heated discussions sometimes, and it slants very much pro-Israel in this conflict. I think you might be projecting a bit if you find anyone here genocidal.

For my mind the footage of tortured to death civilians and women with bloody underwear slants this issue very much into pro-Israel, but to each his own I guess.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Josq's position feels fairly representative of what I'm seeing from the "online" British, e.g. reddit (which skews very left): any nuance that doesn't condemn Israel = supporting all the worst things Israel has ever done or that anyone in Israel has ever suggested doing. Ignoring or minimizing all elements of Hamas evil. Ignoring any extremism (even when blatant) behind anti-Israeli protests etc. Bog standard left wing asshat which seems common in Britain now.

[Valmy]

Yeah.... I'm really coming around to the fuck Israel point of view.
There remain cunts on both sides. But on the Israeli supporting side the genocidal views seem to be increasingly the plurality.
Combined with the footage coming out this does not engender sympathy for the side with all the power.

What is the fuck Israel point of view? What does this mean?

There remain cunts on both sides but...but what exactly? You want one group of cunts to win a major victory just because they currently have less power? That seems insane. But maybe you can explain your position more thoroughly.

[Threviel]

Josq's position feels fairly representative of what I'm seeing from the "online" British, e.g. reddit (which skews very left): any nuance that doesn't condemn Israel = supporting all the worst things Israel has ever done or that anyone in Israel has ever suggested doing. Ignoring or minimizing all elements of Hamas evil. Ignoring any extremism (even when blatant) behind anti-Israeli protests etc. Bog standard left wing asshat which seems common in Britain now.

Ahh, reddit, explains a lot. The only credible place there right now is /ncd

Hamas-huggers have even taken over the joke reddits...

[Admiral Yi]

I see. So I don't use the exact wording the BBC do thus I'm wrong. OK. If it's one of those discussions fair enough. I really don't care.

Yes, it's one of those discussions about the moral character of the Israeli people.

[Razgovory]

Hamas fighters put a baby in an oven, shoot the father and rape the mother laughing the whole time.

"We must understand this in the context of the settler-coloninial oppression.  Open-air prison!  Israelis are cunts!"

[DGuller]

What's also striking, in addition to all the other striking things already mentioned, is the dehumanizing bigotry of low expectations.  Just like you can't be mad at lions for killing the cubs of the female they want to fuck, because that's what lions do, you can't expect some people to abstain from putting babies in the oven if they get a chance.  That's just what they do.  Now, Israelis, those cunts, they are to be held to human standards of behavior.