Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Jacob]

The bit I read implied that Hamas started their attacks first, but I don't think it's safe to assume that either side would hold back and wait with their attacks until attacked first once the ceasefire ended.

[Jacob]

Here's what the CBC said:

About an hour before the ceasefire was to expire early Friday, Israel said it intercepted a volley of rockets fired from Gaza. Minutes after it expired, the military announced a resumption of combat operations and strikes soon began.

I'm sure you can find things to quibble with depending on your point of view, but the takeaway that both sides were ready to continue fighting seems reasonable to me.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm sure you can find things to quibble with depending on your point of view, but the takeaway that both sides were ready to continue fighting.

Plenty to quibble with.  Hamas fired first. Before the agreed upon cease fire had expired.

All the Palestine supporters in the west can suck on that.

[Jacob]

Plenty to quibble with.  Hamas fired first. Before the agreed upon cease fire had expired.

All the Palestine supporters in the west can suck on that.

The counter-quibble is that Hamas firing first is based on "Israel said" which carries an amount of weight proportional to how much you trust Israel to be truthful in this case (modified by how likely it is someone would be able to verify and call Israel out if they did lie).

But yeah, I agree that Hamas choosing to fire rockets before the ceasefire expired is not "hardly news".

[viper37]

All the Palestine supporters in the west can suck on that.

What does that change?
Hamas fired first, ok.  The truce ended.
We knew it was going to end.

110 hostages have been freed.  I think that was worth it for both sides.

[Jacob]

Yeah, the hostage releases were a real positive note.

[Admiral Yi]

All the Palestine supporters in the west can suck on that.

What does that change?
Hamas fired first, ok.  The truce ended.
We knew it was going to end.

110 hostages have been freed.  I think that was worth it for both sides.

We didn't know it was going to end until it did.

What it changes is the resonance of the chants calling for a cease fire.  The pro Palestinian demonstrators are running out of catchy slogans.

[viper37]

All the Palestine supporters in the west can suck on that.

What does that change?
Hamas fired first, ok.  The truce ended.
We knew it was going to end.

110 hostages have been freed.  I think that was worth it for both sides.

We didn't it was going to end until it did.

What it changes is the resonance of the chants calling for a cease fire.  The pro Palestinian demonstrators are running out of catchy slogans.

The truce was supposed to end at 7:00am this morning.


Israel went on the offensive in the West Bank this week, killing two kids, one of them 8 years old. 

One unarmed, the other with something in his hand that might have been dynamite, according to the IDF, if we trust them on their word. 

What is certain is they prevented any medical aid from reaching them, any attempt to help the first injured boy.
Videos purportedly show 2 Palestinian boys shot dead during Israeli raid in West Bank

Then, Hamas had two gunman killing Israeli civilians in Jerusalem, and one person was killed by friendly fire.

Hamas also claims Israel refused to extend the ceasefire.  Israel claims Hamas refuse to give precision on the remaining hostages.

I have little faith on Hamas.  I have little faith on this government. 

Going into the West Bank for a raid while there was a truce in Gaza was provocation in the current volatile climate.  It's like they wanted the truce to be over asap.  It could have waited a couple more days.  All of these attacks in the West Bank are related to the government's policies.

[Admiral Yi]

The Israelis wanted the truce to be over so they tricked Hamas into firing  bunch of rockets before the cease fire expired.  Israel didn't want to make peace so they tricked the people of Gaza into voting for Hamas and then tricked Hamas into launching a bunch of attacks.

Israel has been very clear that each day they get 10 hostages the cease fire gets extended.  I see no indication that Israel has cheated on those terms.

[Jacob]

What are your thoughts on the reported Israeli raid in the West Bank?

[Admiral Yi]

I don't have any yet.

[viper37]

The Israelis wanted the truce to be over so they tricked Hamas into firing  bunch of rockets before the cease fire expired.  Israel didn't want to make peace so they tricked the people of Gaza into voting for Hamas and then tricked Hamas into launching a bunch of attacks.

Israel has been very clear that each day they get 10 hostages the cease fire gets extended.  I see no indication that Israel has cheated on those terms.

They didn't need to trick Hamas into anything.  They already announced they would keep the war going until Hamas was destroyed.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-gallant-emphatic-war-will-resume-soon-as-truce-appears-set-for-extension/

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reiterated Wednesday that the war to destroy terror group Hamas will resume as soon as an ongoing process to secure the release of hostages held captive in the Gaza Strip comes to an end.


His vow to continue the fight was echoed by the other two members of the war cabinet, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and Minister Benny Gantz, as well as by IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi, who all issued statements of readiness to immediately progress with the military campaign.

Meanwhile, with talks underway to potentially extend the current deal beyond Wednesday for another two or more days, an official from the Prime Minister's Office said Israel will push for all children and civilian women hostages to be released through the current ceasefire deal before broadening negotiations to free adult male and soldier hostages.


Israel has vowed to destroy Hamas after it carried out a massive cross-border terror attack last month, invading from the Gaza Strip and slaughtering over 1,200 people in southern Israel, mostly civilians. Terrorists also abducted at least 240 as hostages.

Under the terms of a temporary truce, Hamas has every day released about 10 Israeli women and children held captive, in return for Israel pausing its offensive and allowing additional humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip. Israel has also released three Palestinian security prisoners held in prisons in exchange for each hostage set free. The truce, which began last Friday, was approved by the cabinet to stretch to up to 10 days if Hamas continues to release hostages.

In a statement, Netanyahu said that destroying Hamas was still a prime objective along with returning hostages to Israel.
"From the beginning of the war, I set three goals: the elimination of Hamas, the return of all our abductees, and to ensure that Gaza will never again be a threat to Israel," the prime minister said. "These three goals remain in place."

He said the release of dozens of hostages during the truce over the past week was "a very great achievement" but added that "after this phase of returning our abductees is exhausted," Israel will "unequivocally" return to the fight.

It wasn't an end to the war, it was a temporary truce.

We discussed it here before it began, not expecting Hamas to abide y the terms at all.  In the end, 110 hostages were freed.

I'd say it's a miracle half the hostages were freed.

I've never said Hamas was trustworthy.  But it seems clear no one of these two had plans for a peace.  Only a temporary reprieve.

As for the tactics used by Israel, your government seems to have issues with the way Israel conducts its war, despite its support.  Indication has been given that things must change.  Another public rebuttal to Israel.

I would very like you to point me to Obama saying the same publicly to Israel in previous wars.

[Jacob]

I don't have any yet.

Fair enough.

[Tamas]

I don't really care who shot first because obviously neither side was going to not resume hostilities and both would have an interest in claiming the other side resumed first.

My original point was about maintaining a veneer of impartiality. Which the Guardian has lost nearly all interest in when it comes to this, and they are making me question why I bother reading them between such reporting, the Owen Jones and Simon Jenkins publications, and tbe one per four hours pan-Muslim wailings published.

[garbon]

I don't really care who shot first because obviously neither side was going to not resume hostilities and both would have an interest in claiming the other side resumed first.

My original point was about maintaining a veneer of impartiality. Which the Guardian has lost nearly all interest in when it comes to this, and they are making me question why I bother reading them between such reporting, the Owen Jones and Simon Jenkins publications, and tbe one per four hours pan-Muslim wailings published.

Mainly I'm not sure what is a better UK outlet to look at.