Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Tamas]

I am glad Hamas propaganda is starting to work on some. Hey we are decent guys, this whole jew killing business just spilled over a bit, honest, just a few rotten apples going over their allocated quota of civilian murders while sent out on a slaving raid.

[viper37]

I recall reading something a while ago that Hamas' leadership was shocked at quite how fucked up some of the attackers had been- does make me wonder now whether this was referring to the guys they had radicalised themselves or other groups.

That would explain a bit

I am not surprised of how fucked up the attack was given the drugs.
Radicalization + drugs don't mix well together.

[Jacob]

I am glad Hamas propaganda is starting to work on some. Hey we are decent guys, this whole jew killing business just spilled over a bit, honest, just a few rotten apples going over their allocated quota of civilian murders while sent out on a slaving raid.

Do you think Admiral Yi is the one spreading Hamas propaganda, or do you think it's the Jewish woman he's quoting who presumably was recently released as a hostage?

[DGuller]

It's funny (not in a ha-ha way) how Overton window works in contexts other than politics.  Hamas normalized their behavior to the point where a terrorist can say "we're not savages, we'll smother the baby gently, but no way are we going to behead it", and you have to stop and catch yourself from feeling warm and fuzzy at the display of such humanity.

[The Brain]

Not all German units were as bad as the worst SS units?

[Tamas]

I am glad Hamas propaganda is starting to work on some. Hey we are decent guys, this whole jew killing business just spilled over a bit, honest, just a few rotten apples going over their allocated quota of civilian murders while sent out on a slaving raid.

Do you think Admiral Yi is the one spreading Hamas propaganda, or do you think it's the Jewish woman he's quoting who presumably was recently released as a hostage?

I meant Josq and not so much spreading but falling for it.

For example: the 10-month old baby, his 4 years old brother and the rest of their family - am I to understand they were kidnapped by the good terrorists? After all they were not murdered on the spot. Or the good terrorists are the ones only kidnapping consent-age civilians, and there's a group of neutral terrorists who kidnap infants?

Additionally, one of the Thai hostages told the press they had barely anything given to eat, they had one shower the whole of 7 weeks, and that he witnessed the israeli hostages being beaten with electric cords. I was wondering where these actions fall on the "good guys Hamas" and "bad guys not Hamas just working under Hamas command" scale.

[Josquius]

This shows the problem of the "perfect Israel can do no wrong and the Palestinians are evil monsters" view that there's such a push to enforce. There can be no discussion of Hamas. They're just bad. Comic book villains who do bad for the sake of being bad. Any attempt to discuss is falling for their propaganda.

Nobody supports Hamas here. Its been nearly 2 months now, that should be clear. It would be a much easier (and more 'fun'?) discussion if someone did want to make excuses for Hamas, but nobody is doing that.

The evidence is pretty good that Hamas was merely the leading force over a coalition that was behind the attack. There being more than 2 players at work does look pretty certain to make ending the conflict more difficult. Though Hamas did make propaganda about this fact its not something we've seen much of in the west and there is no harm in discussing it as it is relevant to the current situation.
Nobody thinks there are 'good' terrorists.

[Tamas]

I know you meant to highlight the complex nature of Palestinian terrorist power organisations but focus on this IS useful for Hamas to whitewash themselves and their own responsibility, and it is working.

And I do refuse your equation between the state of Israel and Hamas. With all the faults of the government of the former, they are not the same and when using Hamas as a base of comparison Israel is "perfect" in your context.

For example, the 10 months old kid and his brother who were kidnapped and allegedly died in an IDF air raid. I am well aware that a lot more Palestinian children must have died in this war. However to me there IS a crucial distinction of them being collateral damage in a response to cruel terrorism (how necessary a collateral damage is up for debate obviously), and the Israeli kids' deaths because the latter were not some bystanders accidentally in the way of a larger operation. They were the targets of the Palestinian operation. When kidnapped, they were not poor little sods happening to be in/near the building the real target shared with them. Palestinians went there and pointed guns directly at the kids and their parents and in a very personal way kidnapped them. And apparently nobody with a strong enough voice on the Palestinian side thought that maybe holding a 10 month baby hostage was a bit strong. Incidentally also nobody organised a 100k protest in London to say that maybe the kidnap of 10 months olds should be considered off limits even if the 10 months old is a citizen of a so called apartheid state.

[Threviel]

We have a minor ongoing scandal here in Sweden where a Social Democrat parliamentarian of Palestine descent is an active Hamas supporter. He's been a speaker at Hamas conferences and has said a lot of dubious stuff, but not anything really direct.

He refuses to condemn Hamas and refuses to condemn the terrorist attack.

At this point the expectation is huge scandal and him being kicked out of the party. Oh no, instead our former prime minister, in a weird Freudian slip, calls him Jamal Hamas in Parliament and tells a lie that his entire family of 35 people have been killed by Israelis. She refuses to condemn his behaviour and claims he is the biggest Hamas opponent in the party, but she cannot name a single thing he has done to combat Hamas.

Why? I haven't seen it proved but the theory is that up to a million Social Democrat voters are muslims and the party fears losing that vote of they go down hard on Hamas supporters.

[Tamas]

Why? I haven't seen it proved but the theory is that up to a million Social Democrat voters are muslims and the party fears losing that vote of they go down hard on Hamas supporters.

The way I look at this and I know that's not how politicians are going to look at it is, this need fighting.

There are two possible scenarios: either the decisive number of Muslims of the country are NOT pan-Muslims first and citizens of their country second in which case staying firmly anti-Hamas/anti-Islamist is a non-issue politically, or they ARE pan-Muslims first in which case a firm stance against that must be taken while there's the option to do so.

[Iormlund]

Josq, even if Hamas troops had not personally decapitated or burned little kids it wouldn't make a difference.

Your position is like saying that the IDF holds no responsibility for settlers killing Arabs in the West Bank while they are providing security.
It was a Hamas raid, and they are to be held accountable for whatever took place during the operation.


In any case, we have footage of Hamas commandos storming the rave. You know, the one where they killed a lot of kids and (for example) decapitated and paraded Shania Louk. So no. They are definitely not off the hook.

[Josquius]

Josq, even if Hamas troops had not personally decapitated or burned little kids it wouldn't make a difference.

Your position is like saying that the IDF holds no responsibility for settlers killing Arabs in the West Bank while they are providing security.
It was a Hamas raid, and they are to be held accountable for whatever took place during the operation.


In any case, we have footage of Hamas commandos storming the rave. You know, the one where they killed a lot of kids and (for example) decapitated and paraded Shania Louk. So no. They are definitely not off the hook.

Why do you think Hamas should be off the hook?

[Threviel]

Why? I haven't seen it proved but the theory is that up to a million Social Democrat voters are muslims and the party fears losing that vote of they go down hard on Hamas supporters.

The way I look at this and I know that's not how politicians are going to look at it is, this need fighting.

There are two possible scenarios: either the decisive number of Muslims of the country are NOT pan-Muslims first and citizens of their country second in which case staying firmly anti-Hamas/anti-Islamist is a non-issue politically, or they ARE pan-Muslims first in which case a firm stance against that must be taken while there's the option to do so.

Yes, lately the worker vote has moved from the Social Democrats to the Sweden Democrats. Native Swedes (and other immigrants), in general, do not support mass immigration from MENA countries. But they are not, in general, racists.

There's a window here for the Social Democrats to come down hard on muslim extremism and get the native vote back, but they aren't doing it so I guess they have data showing otherwise.

A Social Democrat run city a while ago got infiltrated (by the criminals joining the party and kicking out the normal politicians) by criminal gangs and more or less taken over by them, so this is a huge and growing problem for them.

[Tamas]

Hamas has taken responsibility for the bus stop attack in Jerusalem. I guess joke is on the OMG apartheid occupiers for not including Jerusalem in the cease fire deal.

[crazy canuck]

Josq, even if Hamas troops had not personally decapitated or burned little kids it wouldn't make a difference.

Your position is like saying that the IDF holds no responsibility for settlers killing Arabs in the West Bank while they are providing security.
It was a Hamas raid, and they are to be held accountable for whatever took place during the operation.


In any case, we have footage of Hamas commandos storming the rave. You know, the one where they killed a lot of kids and (for example) decapitated and paraded Shania Louk. So no. They are definitely not off the hook.

Why do you think Hamas should be off the hook?

I think you missed him saying "not"