Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Crazy_Ivan80]

How many would have died if ISIS had been allowed to keep killing people?

ISIS wasn't really mass killing people in cities it had control of, it was primarily killing people it was fighting in attempts to take more territory, and religious minorities in areas where they were captured.

ISIS and regular arab mass murdering autocrats also weren't much of a trigger for mass protests like those we're seeing now. You wonder what is different...

[Tamas]

You guys keep it up a while longer and you'll end up viper arguing for the complete destruction of Gaza and Raz and others for immediate ceasefire.

[Threviel]

BBC interviewing a Gazan dentist that was phoned up by IDF and had contact with them as his neghbourhood was bombed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079

It's not exactly happy times, but I must say it's damn friendly for a genocide.

[Barrister]

BBC interviewing a Gazan dentist that was phoned up by IDF and had contact with them as his neghbourhood was bombed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079

It's not exactly happy times, but I must say it's damn friendly for a genocide.

So I mean I certainly feel for the Gazans who are having their homes destroyed on like 2 hours notice.  That has to be unbelievably shitty.

But the Israelis have been showing footage from October 7 to various journalists, who are now reporting on it.  The footage is undoubtedly curated and edited by Israel, but there's been no allegation that it's been faked.  Those journalists have then been reporting on what they saw.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-seeing-the-horror-of-hamas-slaughter-leaves-one-in-tears

There is always room to criticize Israel, but after reading both of these stories I have no doubt which side I'm more sympathetic to.

[Barrister]

Pro-palestinian activists at Montreal's McGill University distributed poster calling for a "National Day of Shutdown" on November 9, with images of protestors kicking and breaking glass windows.

November 9 is the anniversary of Kristallnacht.

[Jacob]

I can say that on a personal level that the Hamas attack - and the subsequent public reactions of Palestine sympathizers in the West - has shifted my perception of the Israel-Palestine conflict, on Islamists in general and in the West in particular, and on the right-on activist leftists in the West.

[Barrister]

I can say that on a personal level that the Hamas attack - and the subsequent public reactions of Palestine sympathizers in the West - has shifted my perception of the Israel-Palestine conflict, on Islamists in general and in the West in particular, and on the right-on activist leftists in the West.

Do you care to share how your perception has changed?

[Jacob]

Do you care to share how your perception has changed?

Relative to  my previous perception I'm less sympathetic to the Palestinian political cause, more concerned about the danger of radical Islamicists, and more critical a number of leftist-activist arguments in this and related areas.

EDIT: it has also accelerated the already existing decline in desire to get involved in intenste, knock-down political arguments.

[Barrister]

Shots fired overnight at two jewish schools in Montreal.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/jewish-schools-doors-shot-1.7023759

[Sheilbh]

Relative to  my previous perception I'm less sympathetic to the Palestinian political cause, more concerned about the danger of radical Islamicists, and more critical a number of leftist-activist arguments in this and related areas.

EDIT: it has also accelerated the already existing decline in desire to get involved in intenste, knock-down political arguments.

The shift for me is I do think there is a bigger issue on the left with anti-semitism than I'd appreciated (and I hadn't doubted it before this).

It's not so much the response to the Hamas attack - although there is some of that. Again I imagine 90% of the people here will hate it, but I think this anti-Zionist piece captures that: https://samkriss.substack.com/p/but-not-like-this

But I'm seeing people attacking Bernie Sanders and Jon Lansman (UK ally of Corbyn) for being against the Palestinian and I think they're basically just telling on themselves. In part because they're both Jewish, but also if those opinions are being attacked as anti-Palestine, then you're not interested in peace. You just want war. Again comfortable radicals in Britain and America thrilling vicariously at other people's national liberations and revolutions, paid for in other people's blood.

Edit: I've got a post on Lansman actually in Brexit thread as his interview was interesting.

[Barrister]

It's not so much the response to the Hamas attack - although there is some of that. Again I imagine 90% of the people here will hate it, but I think this anti-Zionist piece captures that: https://samkriss.substack.com/p/but-not-like-this

I mean I can quibble with parts, but as long as the writer acknowledges that deliberately murdering civilians is wrong no matter how bad what "the other side" has done then we can have a conversation.

[Admiral Yi]

Why do you think 90% of the people here will hate it?  It lines up to a T with what I think.  Occupation bad, settlements bad, Hamas killing civilians bad, Israel has a right to retaliate, taking into account the suffering of Palestinian civilians caused by that retaliation.

[Barrister]

Why do you think 90% of the people here will hate it?  It lines up to a T with what I think.  Occupation bad, settlements bad, Hamas killing civilians bad, Israel has a right to retaliate, taking into account the suffering of Palestinian civilians caused by that retaliation.

I'm not sure the writer said Israel had a right to retaliate.  He mostly focuses on how pro-Palestinian voices are seemingly endorsing and cheering on the murder of civilians, but to the extent he's talking about Israel's response it's clear he's not in favour.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure the writer said Israel had a right to retaliate.  He mostly focuses on how pro-Palestinian voices are seemingly endorsing and cheering on the murder of civilians, but to the extent he's talking about Israel's response it's clear he's not in favour.

Yes - he's definitely not, I think the last paragraph is clear on that. But also his stance is explicitly anti-Zionist which I don't think is common on this board. Plus it's from 10 October so written at a slightly earlier point.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought I read something about just Israeli military action, but i can't find it now.