Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

I don't think Biden would have done a presidential TV address to the nation about that though.

Neither would I.

Does that mean the US is giving billions to Israel on top of what we're already giving?

[Grey Fox]

I've definitely heard of billions of aid to Israel. Though it could well be the same deal as much of the Ukrainian aid where its we spent £2 billion on these missiles in 2004 , you can have them, so we mark in our taxes we've donated £2 billion to you.

Or it could be the aid we give them already, not directly tied to this incident.

I don't think Biden would have done a presidential TV address to the nation about that though.

It's not only for Israel tho. Ukraine, Taiwan and even money for the southern border is rumored.

[Josephus]

yeah Biden is trying to equate Urkaine with Israel, and to me, there are many differences. Israel shouldn't need money or munitions to fight Hamas. They do have enough.

[Josquius]

Political move to make the republicans opposition to Ukraine look bad?

You know, because supporting genocidal proto fascists invading their neighbour in a war of conquest is otherwise fine.

[Threviel]

You know, because supporting genocidal proto fascists invading their neighbour in a war of conquest is otherwise fine.

Makes me wonder how many dumb comments like this are fueled by anti-semitism. Jos here is probably not an anti-semite, but just like feminists sometimes argue that society is setup so that you cannot avoid to be a bit misogynist it's also probably setup with a lot of anti-semitism at its foundation. A lot of the resentment against Israel really echoes historical anti-semitism.

Difficult to explain why the left often hates Israel without anti-semitism. A secular, historically very leftist, hbtq+-friendly democratic, underdog nation in an otherwise autocratic religious neighbourhood. I'm quite sure there are a lot of internalized reasons, but I've rarely heard reasons that don't sound hollow.

[Josquius]

You know, because supporting genocidal proto fascists invading their neighbour in a war of conquest is otherwise fine.

Makes me wonder how many dumb comments like this are fueled by anti-semitism. Jos here is probably not an anti-semite, but just like feminists sometimes argue that society is setup so that you cannot avoid to be a bit misogynist it's also probably setup with a lot of anti-semitism at its foundation. A lot of the resentment against Israel really echoes historical anti-semitism.

Difficult to explain why the left often hates Israel without anti-semitism. A secular, historically very leftist, hbtq+-friendly democratic, underdog nation in an otherwise autocratic religious neighbourhood. I'm quite sure there are a lot of internalized reasons, but I've rarely heard reasons that don't sound hollow.

Seriously? In October 2023 you dismiss this as a 'dumb comment' and then try to scream anti-semitism? I didn't have you down as a Russia supporter.
Haven't you watched the news at all this past year and a half?
Even from the mainstream international news the story is pretty clear. Look at what propaganda they're spreading internally and it becomes even more overt.

Completely irrelevant to my comment, I'm not sure how you were even beginning to try to tie the two together, but trying to tie any criticism of Israel to anti-semitism is pretty dumb. And Israel as an underdog- lol. A complete misunderstanding of the situation there which is sadly typical of those who hold an Israel can do no wrong, support them in everything to the hilt opinion.

[Threviel]

Ohh, sorry, I thought you were taking a dig at US support for Israel. I see lots of those types of comments.

Looked again, dumb of me, I must have had my head up my ass.

[Grey Fox]

yeah Biden is trying to equate Urkaine with Israel, and to me, there are many differences. Israel shouldn't need money or munitions to fight Hamas. They do have enough.

Hamas with Iran like Russia and China is waging war on the west. Maybe we should react.

[Sheilbh]

Makes me wonder how many dumb comments like this are fueled by anti-semitism. Jos here is probably not an anti-semite, but just like feminists sometimes argue that society is setup so that you cannot avoid to be a bit misogynist it's also probably setup with a lot of anti-semitism at its foundation. A lot of the resentment against Israel really echoes historical anti-semitism.

Not on Jos' comment but I agree. The fact that we know that when Israel is in the news or there's conflict in Palestine that security needs to be increased for the Jewish community I think can only be explained by a form of anti-semitism. And I think it's a disgrace and shameful. But I think that conflation of Jews with Israel is rooted in anti-semitism (and to an extent a reason Israel remains necessary).

We've had in London, the Jewish community putting up posters and driving round in advertising trucks with posters calling for the return of the hostages from Hamas. Everywhere they are being torn down, and the advertising truck was made to turn off by the police (who threatened them with a public order offence). Calling for the return of hostages is not an endorsement of any policy by Israel or anything like that.

I also take the point that I've seen some British Jews make that they feel very alone. I haven't read the book but this is the Jews Don't Count argument by David Baddiel. The rallies for Gaza are attended by many, many people and people from all sorts of communities - yes, Muslims, but also many on the left, other minorities etc. And British Jews noticed that at the vigils after the initial Hamas attack it was, broadly speaking, just their community turning up. There's over 10 dead British citizens in these attacks, there are British hostages but also the British Jewish community is relatively small (I think about 300,000) and many will have links to Israel and know someone affected by those attacks (again given how small Israel is). Even aside from what the motivation is the feeling that must leave the community must be really grim and, I think, they are experiencing a form of anti-semitism in that solitary grief even if that isn't necessarily the motivation.

I find the inability to even sympathise on a human level shaming. It's something I find very difficult and I think needs to be called out. I think it's a huge hypocrisy on the left. Generally we are happy to look at structural or systemic biases - i.e. look at the outcome or the impact not the intent - on all other issues, except for anti-semitism when all that matters is what you mean and if, in your heart of hearts, you don't like Jews.

I should add on hypocrisies I am also very annoyed at the number of right-wingers drawing attention to LGBT+ rights in Palestine, given that Suella Braverman has been suggesting that anti-LGBT discrimination in a society shouldd not be sufficient for someone to claim asylum. Again, I think disgracefully.

I won't post it here because I think most people here would hate it but I read a piece by Sam Kriss (who I normally never read) who is an anti-Zionist, which was I think really good on some of this coming from the left and coming from anti-Zionism. Some of the restponse to the Hamas was disgraceful - if I was Labour for example I'd be making it pretty clear that no-one should go on or engage with Novara Media at the minute.

[frunk]

yeah Biden is trying to equate Urkaine with Israel, and to me, there are many differences. Israel shouldn't need money or munitions to fight Hamas. They do have enough.

Hamas with Iran like Russia and China is waging war on the west. Maybe we should react.

I think Josephus is correct that Israel doesn't need help to fight Hamas, but also there needs to be a clear signal of Western support for the country to make sure the neighbors don't get frisky.

Right now Western support for Ukraine is much more vital, but situations change.

[Threviel]

I see a lot of support for Gaza. But any support for the Gaza/Palestinians ought also be caveated with support for Israelis and distancing from Hamas, otherwise support for Gaza equals support for Hamas. But I see very little support for Israelis and very little distancing of Hamas. Whenever I've seen support for Gaza questioned everyone answers that they don't support Hamas, but in my mind any support for Gazans ought to start with criticism of Hamas. I didn't see a lot of leftists thinkers show support for the people of Mosul except in the context of criticising Daesh, to compare apples to apples.

To compare with the almost unanimous support for Ukraine, even our old commies in Sweden votes for weapons to Ukraine. Bucha had 280 dead, but every politician with international ambition has been there to show support. Which is right and well, and in general political leaders have reacted similarly, but public perception of the events differ widely.

Every objective measure ought to point to a wide and strong leftist support for Israel, except that there's a lot of jews there.

[Threviel]

Just for fun I tried to find what Byers had to say on Isis, also a terrorist organization masquerading as a state the same as Hamas. I couldn't find the direct source, but according to https://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=5467422&fileOId=7854976
he said, in
'Terrorism, the Use of Force and International Law after 11 September'
(2002)
 

When states 'actively support or willingly harbour' the perpetrators, the
question of attribution is considerably simplified and it has even been put
forth that in cases like these military intervention is in place

So yeah... When the victims aren't Israelis military intervention is apparently completely acceptable.

That quote is pretty old so I can't vouch for its veracity and it's from before Isis, but I have had a hard time finding a good source on his views on how Isis ought to be handled from when it was relevant.

I couldn't find anything implying that he thought fighting against Isis, even if incurring civilian casualties, was against international law.

[Threviel]

Interesting thought experiment by the way. The Islamic Caliphate under Isis had a similar legal standing as Hamas in Gaza. Terrorist organization claiming statehood recognized by none or very very few. Extremely brutal against perceived enemies and extremely aggressive against neighbours.

I'm, when thinking about it, a hypocrite. I have reacted far more strongly to attacks on Israel than attacks on whoever in Iraq/Syria. Ditto Ukraine when compared to Syria/Chechnya. I don't think my values or views are different, only the intensity of the feelings. I care less about cultures farther from my own.

It would be interesting to compare views on Isis and Hamas though. Anyone for military intervention against Isis back in the day ought to support military intervention against Hamas on the same basis.

[The Minsky Moment]

I think this forum and the US are a little bit outliers in global opinion.

That's true for a bunch of reasons I think.
One is the strong evangelical movement that supports Israel as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy of the end time, which from both objective and personal experience is a very real thing.

Another is a sense of identity with Israel as a fellow "pioneer" state and (since 2001) one under attack from Islamic terrorism.  The anti-colonial rhetoric that plays well elsewhere backfires to a great extent in the US.  It also helps that Israel focuses attention on cultivating positive impressions in the US and cultivating these themes.

Another less important from a mass perspective but significant on the so-called "elite" side is Israel's long role as reliable national security partner in the region.

On the flip side, outside the US, support for Palestinian groupings as "national liberation" movements follows on the Left's reflexive support for such movements, and the anti-colonial narrative previously mention.  On the Right, while there is little sympathy for Palestinians, support for Israel is muted by traditional right-wing antisemitism.  In Europe in particular, support for Israel appears to be highly concentrated in the political center and the center has been under siege in recent years.

[Sheilbh]

On the flip side, outside the US, support for Palestinian groupings as "national liberation" movements follows on the Left's reflexive support for such movements, and the anti-colonial narrative previously mention.  On the Right, while there is little sympathy for Palestinians, support for Israel is muted by traditional right-wing antisemitism.  In Europe in particular, support for Israel appears to be highly concentrated in the political center and the center has been under siege in recent years.

I think there is more support for Israel on the radical and far right in Europe, in part because they are primarily Islamophobic and identify with Israel as engaged in the same fight. I think many Jews (though perhaps not Israel's government), as minorities are highly suspect of those parties for good reason.

Although on the point around the centre I think that's true, but the pressure isn't equally distributed. In the Tories I think there is a philo-semitic tradition (often from outside the party establishment, for example Churchill, Thatcher, Johnson). As ancestor worshippers that makes a fair few others adopt a similar approach. I think while the support may be concentrated in the centre the opposition or passion is on the left. So, at least in the UK, leader on the right is unlikely to have any real political consequences for being too pro-Israel but might have internal ructions if they're not supportive (from decision makers/elite side). A Labour leader - and I think this goes for the left in Europe generally - will have to fight their party if they're perceived as too supportive. Blair's support for Israel in Lebanon triggered the move against him that led to his resignation, Starmer's been criticised on the left with Labour councillors leaving the party etc. Violence in the Middle East doesn't cause problems for a government of the right in Europe, it does for a government of the left.

I think the point on the sense of identity/identification is really important as well - it is not for nothing that one area of the UK where there is something like the US is Northern Ireland. You have, as in America, very conservative Protestants (though not as keen on the end times stuff). They are from a religious tradition that identifies with the Old Testament - it's a political and religious culture that still does Covenants where everyone signs a document, and the symbol of many of those churches is the burning bush. And I think there is also a similar colonial/settler heritage as in the US. The flipside I think there's probably nowhere in Europe with more vocal support for and identification with Palestinians (including sometimes support for violence) than Republicans in Northern Ireland. Ireland is broadly quite pro-Palestinian but I think it's other level for Republicans in the North.