Former CIA and NSA employee source of intelligence leaks

[CountDeMoney]

You people never do anything in moderation.  Get a grip, Germany.

[grumbler]

Why would Russia, China, UK and France spy more? How does their level of spying relate to our relationship with the US?

I would think that the Russians and the Chinese would be very intereested in getting more information and thus more leverage on a "neutral" Germany.  The worse the German relationship with the US, the more temptation to anti-US forces to try to tilt the Germans to a pro-Russian and/or pro-Chinese "neutrality."  A lot of things that German decision-makers could not do as part of the West could be done as a "big Switzerland." 

The US has huge intelligence facilities in Germany and get the data right at the source. This is what I question. I am sure the US would still want to spy on us in the future, but I don't see why the German government should make it simple for them.

This is a legit beef.  There is no reason why the Germans should allow American facilities to exist on German soil if they are acting against what the Germans see as their national interests.

[Berkut]

I think it is certainly reasonable for Germany to make some kind of agreement about what they expect out of the US in respects to intelligence gathering as part of any hosting arrangement made about facilities in Germany.

However, I suspect said agreement is in place and in effect, and in fact that the US and Germany do have some kind of understanding about what is and is not acceptable.

Whether the US has violated that agreement is of course impossible to say, since the terms are certainly classified.

All of this is pretty obvious, of course, so the faux outrage is really nothing more than the standard tired "Hate America First" crap with a handy excuse for it. That much is obvious from the bald faced admittance that some trivial matter like this is considered sufficient reason to climb into bed with a truly oppressive regime like Putin's.

[grumbler]

All of this is pretty obvious, of course, so the faux outrage is really nothing more than the standard tired "Hate America First" crap with a handy excuse for it. That much is obvious from the bald faced admittance that some trivial matter like this is considered sufficient reason to climb into bed with a truly oppressive regime like Putin's.

But, you have to remember, Germany wants to be like Switzerland.  Switzerland had no problems getting into bed with worse types than Putin's government, and Germans want to emulate that kind of amorality.  Of course, it makes their pretense to moral outrage over US data collection kinda hollow, but they don't see that the Swiss, whom they wish to emulate, never resort to that kind of childishness.

[Sheilbh]

Why would Russia, China, UK and France spy more? How does their level of spying relate to our relationship with the US?

For the reasons grumbler outlined. For the UK because we spy heavily on Europe in general and share that intelligence with the US. I could be wrong but I'd assume we spy more on countries that are semi-detached from the West, like Greece, than we do with closer allies like the Scandis or Germany. With the French, I think France is probably spying more on Germany in general than they used to simply because Germany's become an unreliable friend but is also very important in Europe. As I've said elsewhere from what I've read the biggest strain on Franco-German relations was Germany's abstention over Libya.

The US has huge intelligence facilities in Germany and get the data right at the source. This is what I question. I am sure the US would still want to spy on us in the future, but I don't see why the German government should make it simple for them.

Okay. But I imagine there's a deal which neither government wants made public. I know you don't like it but with young European Muslims going to fight in Syria I think that's just one legitimate reason for a nation to spy on their citizens. If they can't constitutionally getting a friendly power to do it for you while swapping intelligence is a good way to get around that. In addition, I imagine, the Americans pay.

Yeah, we already know you are a police state supporter, but constitutions and constitutionally protected rights actually mean something to some of us.

Is there a right not to be spied upon or a restriction on the power of the government to spy? Those are different things.

Other countries doing something anyway is meaningless for my argument. I question why the German government supports the US government spying on us and whether that should continue when it is clear that their is no trustful cooperation between the intelligence services and the ballooning US intelligence gathering seems to have lost all proportion.

I imagine there's still lots of trustful cooperation between the services just as there is between the US and Israel, France or the UK despite the intermittent scandals. Though I agree given the spy scandal in Germany the US should probably have turned the guy down unless he had exceptional information.

This BND spy was also caught trying to sell his wares to Russia. My question is why is it only the CIA station chief who's been expelled? Does Exxon need to appoint Kohl to the board or something?

[Admiral Yi]

I have seen very little discussion of *what* exactly the US is spying on in Germany.  I had thought the focus was on jihadist types.  If that's so, I don't really see what the German beef is.  If, on the other hand, the US is spying on German state activity, we need to cut that shit out.

[Razgovory]

I dunno, I would like the US to know what sort of stuff the Germans tell the the Russians.

[Sheilbh]

Apparently Germany was offered an agreement which was in effect them getting a deal like the Five Eyes. If that's accurate they were offered no spying on the German government by any of those countries and intelligence sharing. But the government rejected it. The head of the CIA offered to visit Berlin and try and reach an amicable resolution to this. Apparently the German government aren't impressed with the offer and haven't responded.

I think the CIA probably fucked up here but the US government is trying to resolve this and actually move on in a way that seems in both countries' interests. Germany doesn't seem interested.

It feels like Germany's more concerned about re-assessing her relationship with the US/rest of the West than not being spied on.

Edit: And of course making a big deal about the US working with this BND guy while remaining more or less indifferent to the Russians doing exactly the same adds to that feeling.

[Valmy]

It feels like Germany's more concerned about re-assessing her relationship with the US/rest of the West than not being spied on.

Edit: And of course making a big deal about the US working with this BND guy while remaining more or less indifferent to the Russians doing exactly the same adds to that feeling.

[grumbler]

Apparently Germany was offered an agreement which was in effect them getting a deal like the Five Eyes. If that's accurate they were offered no spying on the German government by any of those countries and intelligence sharing. But the government rejected it. The head of the CIA offered to visit Berlin and try and reach an amicable resolution to this. Apparently the German government aren't impressed with the offer and haven't responded.

I think the CIA probably fucked up here but the US government is trying to resolve this and actually move on in a way that seems in both countries' interests. Germany doesn't seem interested.

It feels like Germany's more concerned about re-assessing her relationship with the US/rest of the West than not being spied on.

Edit: And of course making a big deal about the US working with this BND guy while remaining more or less indifferent to the Russians doing exactly the same adds to that feeling.

Again, the German government is primarily interested in being re-elected, not primarily in serving their country's best interests.  Its a near-universal political imperative in democracies, as JR mentioned.  From what I can tell, that strategy is working.  The Germans don't seem to care so much about what is happening a couple of countries away, they care about the EVOL US.  They seem to see the US (and the rest of the West) as a far bigger obstacle to their dreams of just being left alone to be a big Switzerland than they see Putin being.  I think they are wrong, but I am biased. 

Ironically, the story of Malaysia complaining about Australian spying in almost identical terms has been buried by this story.  Maybe Germany should try to be a big Malaysia before it tries to be a big Switzerland.

The German intelligence community must be gnashing its teeth, over both US and German blunders.  This looks to cripple them.

[The Minsky Moment]

Germans expect the Russians to spy on them and play dirty tricks, so they don't get as upset about it. 

On the surface, the Germans are among the most pro-American Europeans.  The kind of overt anti-Americanism that one can often find in most European countries among both left and right -- even in Britain -- is generally speaking not considered socially or political acceptable (or respectable) in Germany.  But there is an under-current of sentiment below the surface.  It is difficult to put one's finger on it - the word "resentment" comes to mind, although perhaps that is a bit strong.  It is a feeling that is similar to the traditional British complaints of Americans being too arrogant or bullying or taking allies for granted, except not openly stated.  It came out a bit 10 years ago when Schroeder ran volubly against the US policy re Iraq and it is coming out now.

[crazy canuck]

Apparently Germany was offered an agreement which was in effect them getting a deal like the Five Eyes. If that's accurate they were offered no spying on the German government by any of those countries and intelligence sharing. But the government rejected it. The head of the CIA offered to visit Berlin and try and reach an amicable resolution to this. Apparently the German government aren't impressed with the offer and haven't responded.

If it is accurate that Germany was offered a Five Eyes type deal and rejected it then this outrage seems to be mainly a political ploy.  The German government must have known that the consequence of not sharing intel is that the US would have to obtain intel related to its own national interest by other means.

[citizen k]

The German government must have known that the consequence of not sharing intel is that the US would have to obtain intel related to its own national interest by other means.

That's not what this is about.

[crazy canuck]

The German government must have known that the consequence of not sharing intel is that the US would have to obtain intel related to its own national interest by other means.

That's not what this is about.

I am not sure what you mean.

[PRC]

US Embassy in Berlin gets illuminated: