Former CIA and NSA employee source of intelligence leaks

[DGuller]

Well, at the end of the day, Facebook and iAmawesome is not REQUIRED to be had. You have an option to decline.

Maybe you do have the option to decline.  You also have the option to not drive, so traffic laws are an unnecessary imposition on your freedom as well.  However, realistically speaking, the cost of refusing such services is too high, and thus consumers are forced to accept some shit in the bundle.

I would not want government stepping into contracts deciding what's fair and what not, not on this level for sure.

That's the difference between liberals like me and libertarians like you.  I support the tyranny of the government when it used to actually increase or supplement the power of regular citizens.  I only oppose the tyranny of the government when it used against the regular citizens.  Libertarians oppose it in all cases, which often just imposes a different and less accountable level of tyranny upon regular citizens.

[Berkut]

Well, at the end of the day, Facebook and iAmawesome is not REQUIRED to be had. You have an option to decline.

Maybe you do have the option to decline.  You also have the option to not drive, so traffic laws are an unnecessary imposition on your freedom as well.  However, realistically speaking, the cost of refusing such services is too high, and thus consumers are forced to accept some shit in the bundle.

You are equating Facebook with driving a car?

That's the difference between liberals like me and libertarians like you.  I support the tyranny of the government when it used to actually increase or supplement the power of regular citizens. make sure people act in the manner that I've decided they really ought to act if they were as smart as me.

FYP.

[Berkut]

  I only oppose the tyranny of the government when it used against the regular citizens. 

Telling regular citizens they are not allowed to enter into mutually beneficial and agreeable contracts with other regular citizens is not using the tyranny of the government against them?

Sure seems that way to me.

[Tamas]

That's the difference between liberals like me and libertarians like you.  I support the tyranny of the government when it used to actually increase or supplement the power of regular citizens. make sure people act in the manner that I've decided they really ought to act if they were as smart as me.

FYP.

too true

[DGuller]

You are equating Facebook with driving a car?

No, I'm equating having a cell phone with driving a car.

That's the difference between liberals like me and libertarians like you.  I support the tyranny of the government when it used to actually increase or supplement the power of regular citizens. make sure people act in the manner that I've decided they really ought to act if they were as smart as me.

FYP.

Don't be a cunt.

[Tamas]

You are equating Facebook with driving a car?

No, I'm equating having a cell phone with driving a car.

That's the difference between liberals like me and libertarians like you.  I support the tyranny of the government when it used to actually increase or supplement the power of regular citizens. make sure people act in the manner that I've decided they really ought to act if they were as smart as me.

FYP.

Don't be a cunt.

well that might not be very true for you personally, but it is VERY true for how these moral state interventions actually work and why they are desired.

[Bluebook]

Telling regular citizens they are not allowed to enter into mutually beneficial and agreeable contracts with other regular citizens is not using the tyranny of the government against them?

But it is not the same since a company is not a regular citizen. Two regular citizens would indeed be a contract between two equal parties, while a contract between a regular citizen and a multi billion dollar-company armed to the teeth with lawyers is not.

Sure seems that way to me.

Ok, but as we have seen, you are basing your opinion on a faulty assumption.

[Iormlund]

The alternatives to Google in the phone OS market are Apple and Microsoft. All three are in PRISM.
The alternatives in the search market are once again Microsoft and Yahoo. Again all in the program.


It's really funny seeing blind faith in both the government and Teh Market in the same thread, by the same people.

[mongers]

The alternatives to Google in the phone OS market are Apple and Microsoft. All three are in PRISM.
The alternatives in the search market are once again Microsoft and Yahoo. Again all in the program.


It's really funny seeing blind faith in both the government and Teh Market in the same thread, by the same people.

[Berkut]

Telling regular citizens they are not allowed to enter into mutually beneficial and agreeable contracts with other regular citizens is not using the tyranny of the government against them?

But it is not the same since a company is not a regular citizen.

Who gets to define when a regular citizen, or group thereof, becomes a company, and hence I am no longer allowed by Big Brother to enter into contracts with them?

Two regular citizens would indeed be a contract between two equal parties, while a contract between a regular citizen and a multi billion dollar-company armed to the teeth with lawyers is not.

I see - so what if it is a small company, with just a few lawyers?

What if I am a "regular citizen" worth a couple billion myself - can I enter into contracts with a small company, or should the state decide that it isn't allowed without their oversight as well?

Why should we assume that some politicians will be better able to decide for every single individual what would be a better way of them entering into contracts?

Why would anyone assume that involving the state in the contract would somehow create a more fair deal for the "regular citizen" - certianly the state has interests as well, and they are even MORE powerful in many ways than the "regular citizen" and also have a history of using that power to fuck Mr. Regular Citizen. Why should I assume that the DGuller is going to negotiate a better deal for me than I can negotiate for myself?

More importantly, why should I assume that DGuller and his like are so much smarter than me, that not only can they make a better deal for me, they can do so in *ALL* cases, such that I should not even be allowed to make such deals?

Sure seems that way to me.

Ok, but as we have seen, you are basing your opinion on a faulty assumption.

No, I am basing it in exactly what is being proposed. You can hide the reality in the cloak of DoubleSpeak if you like, but at the end of the day what you are demanding is that individuals right to make contracts that they wnat to make ought to be restricted, and in fact the State should be the one to make those contracts for them.

And somehow this is going to be better for the "regular citizens".

Now, I don't think the reality is as stark as either of us are making it out to be - it is hardly an all or nothing proposition.

But the State coming in and restricting the rights of "regular citizens" to enter into contracts that they fully understand and agree to is a rather immense imposition on personal liberty, and should bear with a very serious weight of proving compelling interest, and a clear and obvious screwing over of said regular citizens. And if that was happening, then it should be no difficulty at all in making that clear and we would see swift action taken.

[Tamas]

ok so somebody have a service that you want, but you are not ready to accept the terms they are offering those services with, because you find them unfair.

Is that really an acceptable excuse for legislative intervention on a contract between private actors?

[Berkut]

The alternatives to Google in the phone OS market are Apple and Microsoft. All three are in PRISM.
The alternatives in the search market are once again Microsoft and Yahoo. Again all in the program.


It's really funny seeing blind faith in both the government and Teh Market in the same thread, by the same people.

What is ironic is that the same people arguing that the government is screwing the people by spying on them, then instantly turn around and argue that the people should give up MORE power to that very same government so it can protect them from big business spying on them!

[Razgovory]

Neil just threw up a little.

[mongers]

The alternatives to Google in the phone OS market are Apple and Microsoft. All three are in PRISM.
The alternatives in the search market are once again Microsoft and Yahoo. Again all in the program.


It's really funny seeing blind faith in both the government and Teh Market in the same thread, by the same people.

What is ironic is that the same people arguing that the government is screwing the people by spying on them, then instantly turn around and argue that the people should give up MORE power to that very same government so it can protect them from big business spying on them!

How is expecting or asking the government to regulate big business in anyway 'people giving up power' to the government?

[Berkut]

ok so somebody have a service that you want, but you are not ready to accept the terms they are offering those services with, because you find them unfair.

Is that really an acceptable excuse for legislative intervention on a contract between private actors?

Absolutely. They should pass a law demanding that Apple provide services on the terms that DGuller and other extremely smart people who know better than the peasants what they need define as beneficial to them.

You know what is another issue with these kinds of "deals" with Apple and the like? The cost. It is WAY too high.

And it's not like a regular citizen has any power to negotiate the cost with these giant companies and the way they dominate the market so they can charge these ridiculous rates. While the benevolent hand of the government takes a break from spying on us to enact legislation restricting our right to enter into contracts with the Evil Corporations, they should also go ahead and decide amongst themselves what the "right" cost for those services ought to be, and make sure we don't have to pay more than that for our iPhones and such. Personally, I think $15/month is plenty to pay for an iPhone and data service. The state should mandate prices as well as contracts.