Open mariages and paternity

[Valmy]

Babies... aren't terribly interesting.  They eat and sleep.  It's pretty damn hard to form much of a connection with one absent that biological connection.

I was noting that about Andrew the other day.  He's 10 months old, and he's finally getting to the age where he's interesting and fun to play with.

Yeah I didn't want to go there.

[merithyn]

My child is my biological child, so there was an instant assumption that it was "mine" from the monent she found out she was pregnant. This was based on two factors:

(1) The fact that the child was biologically mine; and
(2) the strength of my relationship with my wife, which is a relationship based, in part, on sexual exclusivity.

It would be odd indeed if I simply decided that some kid borne by a woman I did not have such a relationship with and which was not biologically "mine" was nonetheless "mine" - based on what? My decision, as in adoption? That implies I could decide otherwise, no?

Seems to me you are confusing the notion that a person who adopts is "just as much" a parent as a bio-parent (which I agree with) and that a person who adopts is in the same situation as a bio-parent (they are not). A bio-parent is a parent by default. An adoptive parent is a parent by choice. That choice may be formally made by signing some legal mumbo-jumbo, or arise because someone is acting like a parent over time (BB's in loco parentis or some such latin legal mumbo-jumbo).

But choice implies a choice not to do something, and that choice isn't as readily available to biological parents.

I keep looking for somewhere that I said that you didn't have a choice, or that you had to go into this blindly.

My point was that to me, biology isn't the determining factor that it seems to be for you guys AS YOU STATED IN THIS POST. I don't need that biological tie to feel a connection, which seems to be the case for you and several others. I was asking at what point you could decide that it's not worth raising this child that you've accepted as yours if things go south with the mother.

Let me, once again, say that once I've made the choice, then my heart belongs to the child. Period. End of story. There's no going back in a month or a week or a day and saying, "Yeah, I'm sorry, but I really don't care for you anymore, so I want nothing more to do with that child." It just doesn't work that way for me, so it's very strange to me to hear that some of you could do that. It's not a value judgment; it's just surprise.

[The Brain]

By taking care of non-bio kids you make a mockery of evolution. I think this is enough of an argument.

[merithyn]

Babies... aren't terribly interesting.  They eat and sleep.  It's pretty damn hard to form much of a connection with one absent that biological connection.

I was noting that about Andrew the other day.  He's 10 months old, and he's finally getting to the age where he's interesting and fun to play with.

So you didn't fall in love with him until he was... how old? At what point did you feel a connection with either of your boys?

[MadImmortalMan]

I would honestly not want to raise somebody else's kid. I don't have any good reason why I feel that way. My stepdad did it happily. I don't want to adopt either. Again, no good reason why. I would do it if placed in that situation and it was the right thing to do though.

Funny, I have some nephews that get most of their male role-modely stuff from me and that doesn't bother me. I guess I'm conflicted.

[Valmy]

So you didn't fall in love with him until he was... how old? At what point did you feel a connection with either of your boys?

NOt sure.  You warm up slowly.  It was different than how my wife experienced it.  SOme men feel guilty that they do not feel as connected as they should at first, I knew this would be the case so I was patient.

[MadImmortalMan]

Let me, once again, say that once I've made the choice, then my heart belongs to the child. Period. End of story. There's no going back in a month or a week or a day and saying, "Yeah, I'm sorry, but I really don't care for you anymore, so I want nothing more to do with that child." It just doesn't work that way for me, so it's very strange to me to hear that some of you could do that. It's not a value judgment; it's just surprise.

Definitely agreed. That's why it's a good idea to know everything up-front and not find out years later. People just need to be honest with each other to avoid the damage. I think your cousin, even though he seems to be happy with the situation, should still know up front what the facts are. It might matter some time in the future.

[merithyn]

Definitely agreed. That's why it's a good idea to know everything up-front and not find out years later. People just need to be honest with each other to avoid the damage. I think your cousin, even though he seems to be happy with the situation, should still know up front what the facts are. It might matter some time in the future.

The bolded part makes me think that you don't understand at all.

[MadImmortalMan]

Hey people change. The other possible father might try to take the kid away or something.

[merithyn]

So you didn't fall in love with him until he was... how old? At what point did you feel a connection with either of your boys?

NOt sure.  You warm up slowly.  It was different than how my wife experienced it.  SOme men feel guilty that they do not feel as connected as they should at first, I knew this would be the case so I was patient.

Actually, I didn't fall in love with my twins right away. I was still too young and too selfish. I mean, I cared for them, but that feeling of "my heart walking around outside me" didn't happen until they were almost two weeks old, and they nearly died. THAT'S when I realized just as important to me they were.

Once that happened the first time, though, I've pretty much fallen in love with the rest of my children the moment that I knew that I was pregnant. It's what made losing Ian so hard.

[Barrister]

Babies... aren't terribly interesting.  They eat and sleep.  It's pretty damn hard to form much of a connection with one absent that biological connection.

I was noting that about Andrew the other day.  He's 10 months old, and he's finally getting to the age where he's interesting and fun to play with.

So you didn't fall in love with him until he was... how old? At what point did you feel a connection with either of your boys?

I dunno - it's a growing phenomenon.  It's not s if I wouldn't have done anything and everything for either boy since the day they were born, but that's more about responsibility.

Emotional love just came with time.

[The Brain]

"Open marriage" means the guy is gay. Do we want gays to raise children?

[merithyn]

Hey people change.

That's my point. I don't understand the idea that a person can stop being in love with their child... no matter what blood runs through their veins. The idea that "people change" can affect that is alien to me.

The other possible father might try to take the kid away or something.

And if he did, one would think that the father who raised the kid would fight for him. At least, I would do so, and I don't understand not doing so.

[merithyn]

I dunno - it's a growing phenomenon.  It's not s if I wouldn't have done anything and everything for either boy since the day they were born, but that's more about responsibility.

Emotional love just came with time.

This seems to be the bigger difference (in general) between men and women. (I say in general because I know both men and women who have fallen in love right away, and have taken time to fall in love, with their children. There are always exceptions to the rule.)

Again, this is not a value judgment. I'm learning, that's all. I've never had this explained to me.

[Malthus]

My child is my biological child, so there was an instant assumption that it was "mine" from the monent she found out she was pregnant. This was based on two factors:

(1) The fact that the child was biologically mine; and
(2) the strength of my relationship with my wife, which is a relationship based, in part, on sexual exclusivity.

It would be odd indeed if I simply decided that some kid borne by a woman I did not have such a relationship with and which was not biologically "mine" was nonetheless "mine" - based on what? My decision, as in adoption? That implies I could decide otherwise, no?

Seems to me you are confusing the notion that a person who adopts is "just as much" a parent as a bio-parent (which I agree with) and that a person who adopts is in the same situation as a bio-parent (they are not). A bio-parent is a parent by default. An adoptive parent is a parent by choice. That choice may be formally made by signing some legal mumbo-jumbo, or arise because someone is acting like a parent over time (BB's in loco parentis or some such latin legal mumbo-jumbo).

But choice implies a choice not to do something, and that choice isn't as readily available to biological parents.

I keep looking for somewhere that I said that you didn't have a choice, or that you had to go into this blindly.

My point was that to me, biology isn't the determining factor that it seems to be for you guys AS YOU STATED IN THIS POST. I don't need that biological tie to feel a connection, which seems to be the case for you and several others. I was asking at what point you could decide that it's not worth raising this child that you've accepted as yours if things go south with the mother.

Let me, once again, say that once I've made the choice, then my heart belongs to the child. Period. End of story. There's no going back in a month or a week or a day and saying, "Yeah, I'm sorry, but I really don't care for you anymore, so I want nothing more to do with that child." It just doesn't work that way for me, so it's very strange to me to hear that some of you could do that. It's not a value judgment; it's just surprise.

Huh? You are willfully misreading my posts.

My point (I'll put this simply): once the choice is made by a non-bio-parent, that choice is "just as good as" the bond of a bio-parent.

However, bio-parents are different from non-bio-parents, in that the default position is that they are parents. Non-bio-parents have to go through more "effort" to get into the position where that choice is made - either by an act of will as in adoption, or by the passage of time as in loco parentis.

In either case, biological or not, once the determination is made that one is a parent, there is no "going back".

Your position, if I understand it, is that you make that choice (or would make it) instantly, based on what I don't know, to a kid you have never seen and who is not related to you. Moreover, that you would not care if other people have legitimate ties to that child.

That's fine, as long as it doesn't land you in legal trouble, but it is hardly a "surprise" that others don't share your POV.