Thatcher's Politicial Legacy.

[Jacob]

If you realize that you are a parasite living off the goverment tit and you still think that you are prosperous then you have a real problem.

Well, I think the point of contention is that the people you and Thatcher label parasites didn't think of themselves like that.

And continuously telling them that you are right, and they are (or were) in fact parasites, is not going to make them like you anymore. In fact, it may result in them celebrating your passing.

I'm not going to argue the rights and wrongs of Thatcher's policies. My point was to suggest to derSpiess why I think she is loathed so viscerally by so many Brits. Arguing - as you seem to be doing - that she was right and what she did was necessary doesn't really change anything.

[Jacob]

Perhaps that says something about the people doing the reviled and not the object of revulsion.

That they went through a harder time?

[Martinus]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

Pretty much every single country of the ex-communist bloc went through changes much much dramatic.

[crazy canuck]

If you realize that you are a parasite living off the goverment tit and you still think that you are prosperous then you have a real problem.

Well, I think the point of contention is that the people you and Thatcher label parasites didn't think of themselves like that.

You were the one that called them parasites.  If you want to "win" an argument that way be my guest but I wont participate.

[Jacob]

You were the one that called them parasites.  If you want to "win" an argument that way be my guest but I wont participate.

There's no argument to "win", I don't think

[The Larch]

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Perhaps that says something about the people doing the reviled and not the object of revulsion.

Or that reforms done everywhere else were not implemented with the same vindictiveness. All the comments on the ones done by Thatcher make a point on their nastiness, almost on a personal level.

[fhdz]

Eh, we'll continue to get rude awakening after rude awakening...and we'll continue to centralize and intervene economically. I don't necessarily have a philosophical problem with that as much as I have a practical problem with it. The more structure we build around these services, the more we have tiny numbers of people tipping the scales this way and that, the more fragile we make our complex economic system to violent shocks...just like bacteria become more resistant the more antibiotics we throw at them.

I just read a book you might like.

I just finished it a week or so ago actually

[The Minsky Moment]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

China has state ownership and large, wasteful capital expenditure in transport and construction.

[Admiral Yi]

Or that reforms done everywhere else were not implemented with the same vindictiveness. All the comments on the ones done by Thatcher make a point on their nastiness, almost on a personal level.

That could be true or it could just another way of phrasing the subjectivity.  It would help to know what people are specifically referring to so we could judge for ourselves.

[Jacob]

About respecting public figures when they pass away: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

...the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.

[The Larch]

Or that reforms done everywhere else were not implemented with the same vindictiveness. All the comments on the ones done by Thatcher make a point on their nastiness, almost on a personal level.

That could be true or it could just another way of phrasing the subjectivity.  It would help to know what people are specifically referring to so we could judge for ourselves.

I believe Sheilbh just talked about it on the other thread, and how it all boiled down to Maggie's personality and way of conducting politics, which hugely antagonized her opposition.

[Habbaku]

About respecting public figures when they pass away: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

...the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.

That sounds very reasonable to me.  The problem isn't with people criticizing the deceased, but with crowing about their death.  It can be tough, depending on the figure, to avoid crossing that line.

[Valmy]

About respecting public figures when they pass away: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

...the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.

First: Glenn Greenwald

Second I agree entirely with what he said here.  I have no problem with people hating Thatcher I just think they are mistaken as to her impact.

[MadImmortalMan]

I wonder if she was able to get away with being so confrontational because she was the first female PM. Or if she had to be so confrontational in order to become the first female PM.

[crazy canuck]

About respecting public figures when they pass away: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

...the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.

There is a distinction between fighting "false history" and celebrating the death.