Breaking news: Margaret Thatcher has died

[Admiral Yi]

What sort of specifics?

Numbers.  Ratios.  Comparitors.

[Gups]

The miners were getting about £25 per week on average prior to the 1972 strike against an average wage of about £44 (for everyone from janitors to CEOs).

[Neil]

The miners were getting about £25 per week on average prior to the 1972 strike against an average wage of about £44 (for everyone from janitors to CEOs).

And that's why the 72 strike is so sympathetic.  Inflation was something of an issue at that point, so their wages had to go up.  Even 74 is easy to see from the point of view of the miners, given the high inflation of the time was whittling away their buying power.  Sure, large and loud segments of the leadership were talking about 74 as a political action, but it's not like the miners were in it for the politics.  They were in it to protect what they had gained in 72.

I remember when I read up about this when I was much younger, I was always wondering why the government was setting the wage, and why they didn't just ask their bosses for a raise.  It wasn't until I was older that I got into the whole mechanism of industrial wage relations in the UK with their boards and whatnot.

[Capetan Mihali]

Kes is the awesome one which everyone of the last generation has seen.

Thanks, Tyr.  And funnily enough, in the Wikipedia article about the film, there's a link to a source claiming that in the early 70s the British miners were among the lowest paid in the industrialized West, fighting to get 35 pounds a week.

While I don't usually like to ad-hom against anything.. but, seriously, Jonathan Pilger? WTF?

You got a second source for that?

Dunno, just bumped into that source while looking up the Ken Loach film. 

[Viking]

Kes is the awesome one which everyone of the last generation has seen.

Thanks, Tyr.  And funnily enough, in the Wikipedia article about the film, there's a link to a source claiming that in the early 70s the British miners were among the lowest paid in the industrialized West, fighting to get 35 pounds a week.

While I don't usually like to ad-hom against anything.. but, seriously, Jonathan Pilger? WTF?

You got a second source for that?

Dunno, just bumped into that source while looking up the Ken Loach film. 

While I don't usually like to ad-hom against anything.. but, seriously, Ken Loach? WTF?


My attitude towards Ken Loach is the same for my attitude towards RATM, excellent art, pathetic politics.

[crazy canuck]

Wait, wasn't the depleted council housing stock a good thing?

I expect it wasn't a good thing for the people who couldn't afford to buy it as it was sold off; and that might include many of the people hit by the peak unemployment at the time.

Just a guess, though.

Nope, only the occupier had the right to buy.

The sale of council housing led to good and bad things as most major policies of this sort do. It improved neighbourhoods by giving people more of a stake and inclusiveness by allowing working class people a step on the property ladder and mobility. On the other hand is severely diminished the affordable housing stock, particularly given that local authorities were prohibited from using the receipts to construct or buy  new housing. Worse they were forced to provide mortgages to the purchasers if they couldn't get one from a bank.

The idea was, IMO, good on balance. However it was implemented poorly and the diicsount given against market price at 40%-60% was (and remains) a disgrace.

I am not sure how it could have been done differently without displacing all those people which would have been the real disgrace.

@ Jacob, what is your view of the cold hearted "Bitch" now?

[Jacob]

@ Jacob, what is your view of the cold hearted "Bitch" now?

I don't have a strong opinion of her, and to be honest I never did; she's too remote for me.

I think she was a very strong person and leader; that she made the decisions she thought were right including significant reforms she (and many others) thought were necessary. She presided over - and set the direction for - significant economic and social change in her nation in which many prospered, but many were left in a much shittier situation than when she started. She had little pity or help to offer those who were not winners in the Britain she created.

In broad strokes, I think she had to deal with the unions and national industries and the economy, and the general direction she took was necessary; the break from moribund socialism had to come. Economically she was basically right, socially she was not, and her policies created too many victims. Maybe it was unavoidable collateral damage, maybe not; but the impact was significant and rather rough if you had to bear it.

I have no personal animus towards her whatsoever. I would never call her a cold hearted bitch; but I certainly understand the reason why many do. I also understand why many think highly of her.

The only issue I can think of where I instinctually support her is the Falklands.

[Jacob]

Question for you, CC - how did the anti-Thatcher vitriol manifest itself in the Billy Elliot production you saw? Was it significantly different from the movie (if you saw that)?

[crazy canuck]

Question for you, CC - how did the anti-Thatcher vitriol manifest itself in the Billy Elliot production you saw? Was it significantly different from the movie (if you saw that)?

I didnt see the movie so I can't comment on the differences but what struck me in the stage production was there was one stage set which had a giant blow up head and hands of Thatcher which her portrayed her not unlike the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz.  I have read that some on social media had advocated the purchase of the song from the Wizard of Oz "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" to make it the best seller on the day of her death so I feel a bit reinforced in my initial view.

The second thing was in the program for the show there was an "historical" explanation for the context of the play which pointed out there were only two working coal mines in all of Britain and that Britain imported 98% of all its coal today all thanks to Thatcher closing down the mines.  As I understand it that is factually incorrect but of course plays to the misconception of those who wish to vilify her.   Something I thought odd for an American touring company to do but I suppose they simply replicated whatever the original material produced in Britian might have said and so the historical inaccuracy was simply passed on without thought.

I could understand the labour strife and the strike being an important backdrop to the play.  And the songs where filled with references to that conflict.  That was not suprising and I thought rather well done.  The other stuff was, I thought, over the top and designed to vilify rather than provide context.

[Jacob]

I didnt see the movie so I can't comment on the differences but what struck me in the stage production was there was one stage set which had a giant blow up head and hands of Thatcher which her portrayed her not unlike the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz.  I have read that some on social media had advocated the purchase of the song from the Wizard of Oz "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" to make it the best seller on the day of her death so I feel a bit reinforced in my initial view.

The second thing was in the program for the show there was an "historical" explanation for the context of the play which pointed out there were only two working coal mines in all of Britain and that Britain imported 98% of all its coal today all thanks to Thatcher closing down the mines.  As I understand it that is factually incorrect but of course plays to the misconception of those who wish to vilify her.   Something I thought odd for an American touring company to do but I suppose they simply replicated whatever the original material produced in Britian might have said and so the historical inaccuracy was simply passed on without thought.

I could understand the labour strife and the strike being an important backdrop to the play.  And the songs where filled with references to that conflict.  That was not suprising and I thought rather well done.  The other stuff was, I thought, over the top and designed to vilify rather than provide context.

Heh... yeah, that does seem to be reflecting a received agenda as you suggest. As I recall the film, it didn't have anything like that. I mean, it could easily be seen as anti-Thatcher in that it primarily took place in an environment where everyone would loathe her, and you could readily see why. But it wasn't about Thatcher in particular as I recall it; she just loomed large in background because, well, she loomed large at the time.

Another explanation of the anti-Thatcher stuff you mention could be than rather than uncritically passing along stuff from the original production, they felt the need to explain the anti-Thatcher undercurrent (of the characters etc) to an audience they assume would be unaware of the situation in the UK at the time. And in doing so, they went for a simplistic villain portrayal for whatever reason (because they adopted the miner's views/ because they had a negative opinion of Thatcher themselves/ because they thought it more satisfying to have a palpable villain in the piece)... that's idle speculation on my part, and doesn't really change the end result.

But yeah, I can see why you'd be surprised that the "objective" narrator voice seemed to be so strongly anti-Thatcher, especially in an American production. I don't recall the film having that.

[fhdz]

As a feature of this global news event, I'm looking at "Boys from the Blackstuff"; any good, Britons?

Yes. Amazing TV.

Any recommendation on a Ken Loach to start with?  I love Mike Leigh, but if I hadn't stumbled upon "Naked," I doubt I'd ever have gotten into it.

Leigh is brilliant.

[Sheilbh]

Hell, the only thing keeping the Communist Party in the UK alive after Hungary was the radicalization of the trade unions, and as you well know the more militant wings of the Labour Party were no joke either.  Wilson's platform in 74 was pretty radical, after all.

I'd put it the other way round. The far-left as a big movement were ended in this country by Hungary. I think after that they realise the only way they'll have power is through entryism - which happens to some unions and to the Labour Party.

Wilson in 74 was still nothing on Foot

Any recommendation on a Ken Loach to start with?  I love Mike Leigh, but if I hadn't stumbled upon "Naked," I doubt I'd ever have gotten into it.

I'd say 'Kes' too. I also really love 'The Navigators', which is about rail privatisation. 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' is outstanding as well, but in a different vein to lots of Loach's films.

I'd be interested in an American perspective on 'Bread and Roses', I enjoyed it a lot but I'm a little suspicious when so English a film-maker as Loach does a film somewhere else.

I didnt see the movie so I can't comment on the differences but what struck me in the stage production was there was one stage set which had a giant blow up head and hands of Thatcher which her portrayed her not unlike the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz.  I have read that some on social media had advocated the purchase of the song from the Wizard of Oz "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" to make it the best seller on the day of her death so I feel a bit reinforced in my initial view.

A lot of theatre directors and set designers tend to be quite literal. I can see that being about how she loomed at the time over the conflict and representing how she was perceived within the community - other-worldly, distant, omnipotent.

Leigh is brilliant.

Yes he is

[grumbler]

She had little pity or help to offer those who were not winners in the Britain she created.

This is one of the myths that i have always found most peculiar.  Yes, there were inevitable job losses associated with the closing down of the government teat for unprofitable businesses, but there were training programs (I remember a youth training scheme that was considered widely successful).  The biggest losers in the "Britain she created" were the Northern Irish, much worse hit than Northern England or Wales or Scotland.  Yet Northern Ireland rebounded.  I don't see it as Thatcher having "little pity or help to offer those who were not winners," so much as it was that many groups felt themselves unable and/or unwilling to change, and so were left behind in the "Britain she created." 

Now, there was definitely an air of "let them eat cake" in the Thatcher government, as i recall (and I did live in the UK during her premiership), but I think "little pity or help to offer" is an overstatement and a simplification that obscures more than it illuminates.

[Jacob]

You may be right grumbler, but it doesn't seem to be a view that has wide currency. I mean, I don't think Tyr's views make him an outlier for his or his parents' demographic.

[HVC]

You may be right grumbler, but it doesn't seem to be a view that has wide currency. I mean, I don't think Tyr's views make him an outlier for his or his parents' demographic.

Tyr's also enraged by the north Americans use of the word candy, so he may not be the best gauge.