Will the Government shut down on the 27th of March?

[derspiess]

It adopted all kinds of names for who ever opposed it.  Fact is, it allied with conservatives and then used the term later when no longer needed them.

Conservatives and Nazis tolerated each other for a time.  IIRC the Nazis used that term from the very beginning.

I know there is a whole thing in the US these where Nazism isn't actually right wing, but I thought you and Yi were immune to that nonsense.

Oh, you wanna go there, huh?  There certainly were some rightwing elements to Nazism, but it's way too simplistic to call it rightwing.  There was a noticeable socialist element to it as well, and on the whole it doesn't fit into the right-left paradigm as neatly as you'd like it to.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, I went there.  First, there can be "socialist" elements in a right wing doctrine.  Second, not all non-capitalist ideas are automatically socialist.  I suppose it's to simplistic to call Communism a "left-wing" doctrine, as well right?

[frunk]

Well that is true.  I just wanted to make sure nobody acts like Mussolini was not ultimately responsible for how things went down.

I never understood why that would be a defense.  Your new northern neighbor says he wants to liquidate a certain amount of your population and it's not your fault when you let him do it?

[Razgovory]

Well that is true.  I just wanted to make sure nobody acts like Mussolini was not ultimately responsible for how things went down.

I never understood why that would be a defense.  Your new northern neighbor says he wants to liquidate a certain amount of your population and it's not your fault when you let him do it?

That is what most of Europe would like us believe.

[Sheilbh]

Nazism was not a reactionary movement-- it viewed itself as revolutionary, and in fact named reactionaries (conservatives) as an enemy.

Well you can have reactionary revolutionaries, Iran proves that.

But I think Fascism was a reactionary movement. One of their core attitudes was a reaction against the perceived failures and betrayal of liberal democracy, and the anarchy of socialism. The same sort of view leads to out-and-out reactionaries who want to re-establish a previous version of the state. Normally some idealised version of an absolute monarchy - this was present in Germany, Italy and the Carlists in Spain. They all worked to some extent with Fascist movements though not necessarily comfortably, I think they were all also 'useful idiots'.

The Fascist response was a sort of reactionary modernism. That liberal democracy had so betrayed the nation and socialism so besmirched their cities that everything had to be torn down and they had to build not an immediate idealised past but an almost mythical Aryan Germany or Italian Roman Empire. They were revolutionary but I think their motivation and their enablers were reactionary.

But then I wouldn't ever equate reactionary and conservative. I think conservatives were those who evolved in order to conserve. They didn't yearn for a return to an absolutist order but to make liberal democracy work and, yes, the Centre Party in Germany and the Italian People's Party in Italy though conservative, Catholic Christian democrats suffered and were persecuted under Fascist regimes. I think in Spain as well of the suffering of the Basques who were conservative, devout Catholics destroyed by reactionaries or Unamuno's courage. They were an enemy to Fascists because they accommodated the destruction of the nation by participating and believing in liberal democracy.

[Admiral Yi]

That's mostly semantics.  By that logic communism was reactionary because it was a reaction to the perceived excesses of bourgeois capitalist democracy.

Phalangism was the only reactionary one of the three.

[Sheilbh]

That's mostly semantics.  By that logic communism was reactionary because it was a reaction to the perceived excesses of bourgeois capitalist democracy.

It is entirely semantics. It's about the meanings of words.

Also by that logic communism is a progressive revolutionary movement. It's about building a new mythical utopia, not a return to one. If we get rid of the kulaks and the politicians we can build utopia, if we purge the nation of collaborators we can restore her native greatness. Capitalism (I can't think of a capitalist democracy that went communist off the top of my head) delayed utopia while liberal democracy destroyed the nation.

Edit: And of course the alternate view is that fascism was a socialist and revolutionary movement, just like communism. So the two are more or less indistinguishable, which isn't even semantics it's sophism.

[Razgovory]

Mussolini disagreed.  He said that Fascism was reactionary.  Shelf is right about Fascism though, reactionary modernism is a pretty good description.  I think that reactionary is similar to conservative, though not the same.  The conservative is typically more grounded.  The reactionary believes in an imaginary past be it a racial pure Germany or a free and harmonious Christian America.

You right wingers are strange bunch, so eager to draw lines from liberals to socialists then to communists but if someone else draws a line from you to some of your ideological cousins you cry bloody murder.  It's like you believe that conservatism really only exists in American after 1980 and that anything that isn't what you believe is not right wing and thus left wing.

[Sheilbh]

Mussolini disagreed.  He said that Fascism was reactionary. 

Quite. 'Fascism is reaction'.

[Admiral Yi]

What's the difference between crying bloody murder and disagreeing?

[Razgovory]

What's the difference between crying bloody murder and disagreeing?

A difference of... degree.

[Sheilbh]

What's the difference between crying bloody murder and disagreeing?

Slower and with diagrams please

[Razgovory]

Incidentally, Yi and I had a very similar argument almost one year ago.

[fhdz]

Incidentally, Yi and I had a very similar argument almost one year ago.

I'm sorry to hear it wasn't resolved.

[Valmy]

Incidentally, Yi and I had a very similar argument almost one year ago.

Link?