Freedom and Slavery

[Razgovory]

This is partial inspired by the recent suicide thread, and also by some libertarian stuff I read.  I pose a question:  Should a person be able to sell themselves into slavery?  While Slavery and Freedom seem antithetical at first glance, can a person be free to be a slave or does Freedom forbid this action between two consenting adults?

[Jaron]

I think one could argue successfully that military service is very close to a form of slavery. Obviously the payment and rewards make that comparison less than completely accurate, but assuming there was some kind of material reward (otherwise why would you submit yourself to slavery?) I don't think it is any less immoral to say - in exchange for housing and board, I'll submit myself to work for Microsoft for 5 years.

[Phillip V]

No slavery.

[Martinus]

No.

[Razgovory]

No.

Why?

[Razgovory]

I think one could argue successfully that military service is very close to a form of slavery. Obviously the payment and rewards make that comparison less than completely accurate, but assuming there was some kind of material reward (otherwise why would you submit yourself to slavery?) I don't think it is any less immoral to say - in exchange for housing and board, I'll submit myself to work for Microsoft for 5 years.

I'm not certain why you would do such a thing.  Perhaps a father sells himself into slavery so the money can go to pay for an operation for his son.

[MadImmortalMan]

You can't leave the military without being punished. It's not an entirely wrong comparison.

[Razgovory]

I am to understand that in India there are certain training programs where you essentially become bonded to a company for a certain number of years.  My dad works with a few of the guys.  The laws that allow this don't carry any weight in the US so come here and ditch that noise.  I don't understand exactly how it works though.

[Martinus]

You can't leave the military without being punished. It's not an entirely wrong comparison.

It is a wrong comparison.

The immanent element of slavery is that one ceases to be a person and becomes an object/chattel. A binding contract to perform speicified work is completely different, even if you cannot get out of it for a certain period of time - you still retain your fundamental rights and your personhood.

Military service is similar to slavery like letting someone cut your hair is similar to letting someone cut your head off.

[MadImmortalMan]

Well duh, but slavery is involuntary. Raz's question is about indentured servitude.

[Martinus]

Well duh, but slavery is involuntary. Raz's question is about indentured servitude.

The difference between slavery and indentured servitude is not whether it is voluntary or not (there have been cases of involuntary indentured servitude as a punishment of crimes for example) but a question of rights the person in such condition retains. So again you are wrong.

[Martinus]

If the question is whether a person could voluntary give up all human and personal rights, and effectively give another person a right to sell, use, abuse and kill him/her as that other person sees fit (i.e. "slavery"), then the answer is an unequivocal no.

If the question is whether a person could agree to work for another person for a specific time (e.g. in exchange for an advance cash payment) and be subject to more than just normal contractual penalties (e.g. imprisonment) if he or she reneges on the deal (assuming the other party keeps their side of the deal and does not, for example, violate the first person's rights) (i.e. "indentured serviture") then I would say the answer is still no, but for different reasons (i.e. because we, as a sociaty, decided at some point, that breach of private contract is not a crime and may not, as a result, involve criminal sanctions).

[CountDeMoney]

Men and women do it every day by putting wedding bands on their fingers.

[Razgovory]

Well duh, but slavery is involuntary. Raz's question is about indentured servitude.

The difference between slavery and indentured servitude is not whether it is voluntary or not (there have been cases of involuntary indentured servitude as a punishment of crimes for example) but a question of rights the person in such condition retains. So again you are wrong.

And what rights does a person retain after someone assists them in committing suicide?

[Ed Anger]

Men and women do it every day by putting wedding bands on their fingers.

Call me Kunta Kinte.