Elementary school shooting gun control pissing contest

[DGuller]

If there is a car accident at a dangerous intersection, I would feel more comfortable if the cops were callously investigating the causes so soon after the tragedy, rather than breaking open their boxes of tissues and sobbing into them.

The jokes are priceless sometimes.

And don't think the cops are the only ones, either.  Seen plenty of trauma surgeons busting on somebody right there on the table. 
Like the guy who came in off a chopper from a motorcycle accident with both his feet in plastic bags getting X-rayed on the bed next to him.  Reading off his vitals, when they got to height, doc was "well, whatever it is, subtract two feet".  I LOL'd. 

[jimmy olsen]

Haven't read this thread, so I'm sure people have made this point. But, rightly or wrongly, it's extremely unlikely that anything substantial will be done on the issue of gun control. That being said, we should look at reforming the treatment of the mentally ill. These days it seems we just toss the crazies in jail once they commit a crime, and otherwise don't worry about.

http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Meh, whatever. I think the language is ambiguous enough that it means whatever the reader wants it to mean.

More importantly (at least to me) is that even if I were to agree with you about what it says, it would not change my opinion about it's modern relavance any. If I thought it said that, I would have no problem supporting an amendment to ditch the 2nd altogether. Note that is not saying that I think there should or should not be more gun control - only that I think the decisions about what is or is not reasonable gun control should be made without deference to some fundamental right, because I don't think any such fundamental right exists to begin with (at least in the manner we define and believe in "fundamental rights").

Like I said before, I don't think you can take away the right to free speech, or freedom of religion, or freedom to congregate and still have a free society. I think you can heavily restrict gun ownership and still have a free society, therefore I would much prefer us to be able to make our laws without any restrictions that are fundamentally designed to protect a free society.

The "right to bear arms" is a means to an end, and I think it is clear that in reality, a bunch of people owning guns on modern society does nothing towards keeping us free.

Heller simply says you can't outright ban weapons in common usage, the right to bear arms is an individual and you have an innate right to self defense. You can think what you want about it, but the fact is our constitution was not written to just ignore parts that you think are outdated. For example the long lame duck term after elections was so people riding horses would have time to get to Washington for the swearing in. That became antiquated, but you have to actually amend the Constitution to change that, you can't just declare it antiquated and move on. That's the point I was making, your interpretation of the second amendment is irrelevant when it clashes with a precedential ruling from the SCOTUS.

FWIW, I'm an anti-populist, I think only trusted individuals should have guns and gun ownership should require licensing. But I think we should have set criteria for said licensing and if you meet that criteria the government has to issue it to you just like they do a driver's license. It shouldn't be discretionary. I think Germany has a good law though, that under the age of 25 you have to get a psychiatric evaluation to get a gun. Incidentally, it seems a lot of the worst gun users are under the age of 25.

Heller allows wide latitude for regulation of firearms, so in all reality unless you are advocating a gun ban outright there is no reason to war with the second amendment in the first place. All it takes is 13 States not wanting to repeal it and you're dead in the water. It is unlikely you could get that many on board in any of our lifetimes.

[CountDeMoney]

I think Germany has a good law though, that under the age of 25 you have to get a psychiatric evaluation to get a gun. Incidentally, it seems a lot of the worst gun users are under the age of 25.

Then you start straddling the right to privacy, in addition to the right to bear arms.  That really starts to complicate things.

I don't know what Germany's privacy laws are regarding mental health issues, but I'm sure they are substantially more progressive for the sake of the greater community at large than it is here.  But that is as foreign a concept here as it the concept of the 2nd Amendment is for Germans.

[Mr. Grey]

What's the typical design basis threat of American schools? Should it include a lone gunman?

Active shooter scenarios have been part of school threat analysis for a few years already, really took off since Columbine.  More colleges have really taken to it since Virginia Tech, although more progressive schools have had mass casualty drills of all sorts for a long time.  Used to be bombs and fire events.  Now it's active shooters.

My impression is that few schools in America have security measures that stop a lone gunman.

Options

I don't trust the majority of public school teachers to do the job they were hired for....definitely do not trust them to have firearms!

I know the high school near me has an armed county sheriff on campus during school hours. I am not against that.

[CountDeMoney]

I don't trust the majority of public school teachers to do the job they were hired for....definitely do not trust them to have firearms!

I know the high school near me has an armed county sheriff on campus during school hours. I am not against that.

A Republican Congressman said that elementary school principals should be armed and have access to assault rifles in order to kill potential shooters.

Representative Louie Gohmert theorized that if the principal at Sandy Hook Elementary School had an M-4 rifle in her office, then she would have been able to shoot Adam Lanza before he proceeded to kill 20 students and six adults at the Newtown, Connecticut school.

'I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn't have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids,' he said.

He feels that 'having been a judge and reviewed photographs of these horrific scenes and knowing that children have these defensive wounds, gun shots through their arms and hands as they try to protect themselves, and, hearing the heroic stories of the principal, lunging, trying to protect (the children)' the principal would have been helped if she had her own automatic weapon.

Ah, Congressional Republicans. 

[Caliga]

Methinks his comment was somewhat inappropriate.

[garbon]

I don't trust the majority of public school teachers to do the job they were hired for....definitely do not trust them to have firearms!

I know the high school near me has an armed county sheriff on campus during school hours. I am not against that.

A Republican Congressman said that elementary school principals should be armed and have access to assault rifles in order to kill potential shooters.

Representative Louie Gohmert theorized that if the principal at Sandy Hook Elementary School had an M-4 rifle in her office, then she would have been able to shoot Adam Lanza before he proceeded to kill 20 students and six adults at the Newtown, Connecticut school.

'I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn't have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids,' he said.

He feels that 'having been a judge and reviewed photographs of these horrific scenes and knowing that children have these defensive wounds, gun shots through their arms and hands as they try to protect themselves, and, hearing the heroic stories of the principal, lunging, trying to protect (the children)' the principal would have been helped if she had her own automatic weapon.

Ah, Congressional Republicans. 

Good that he's expanded from terror babies.

[CountDeMoney]

As surprising as it is, only marginally less quackers than Sheilbh's fave-rave pastor fucktard:

Mike Huckabee: Sandy Hook shooting not surprising after God 'removed from our schools'

Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee commented on the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn., on Fox News, saying that Americans have "systematically removed God from our schools" and thus shouldn't be surprised when violence occurs there.

Huckabee: The biggest aftermath of something like this is people are going to look for, 'Why did it happen?' Okay, well the answer is inexplicable. And what do we do to stop it? You can take certain measures, and I think your that previous guest had a lot of great ideas which is very important. But ultimately, you can take every gun away in America and somebody will use a bomb. When somebody has an intent to do incredible damage, they're going to find a way to do it. In the case of the Jonesboro shooters we were talking about an 11 and a 12 year old kid who took high powered rifles and gunned down their classmates and teachers after they had got them into a school yard by setting off a fire alarm where they were trapped in a fenced area and couldn't get back in because the door locked after them. They were sitting ducks. And the question was how can an 11 and a 12 year old do this? And the answer is nobody can understand how that can happen.

Huckabee: So you know, people will want to pass new laws, but unless you change peoples' hearts, there I transition maybe to the pastor side. This is a heart issue, it's not something, laws don't change this kind of thing.

Host: You know, invariably, people ask after tragedies like this, 'How could God let this happen?'

Huckabee: Well, you know it's an interesting thing. We ask why there's violence in our schools but we've systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability. That we're not just going to have to be accountable to the police if they catch us but one day we stand before a holy God in judgment. If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that. And so I sometimes when people say, 'Why did God let it happen?' you know, God wasn't armed. He didn't go to the school. But God will be there in the form of a lot of people with hugs and with therapy and a whole lot of ways which I think he will be involved in the aftermath. Maybe we ought to let him in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end.

Then again...when was the last time a Catholic school got shot up?  :papisthmmm:

[Caliga]

 

FWIW I told you people back in 2008 that Huck was evil and dangerous.

[Razgovory]

As surprising as it is, only marginally less quackers than Sheilbh's fave-rave pastor fucktard:

Mike Huckabee: Sandy Hook shooting not surprising after God 'removed from our schools'

Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee commented on the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn., on Fox News, saying that Americans have "systematically removed God from our schools" and thus shouldn't be surprised when violence occurs there.

Huckabee: The biggest aftermath of something like this is people are going to look for, 'Why did it happen?' Okay, well the answer is inexplicable. And what do we do to stop it? You can take certain measures, and I think your that previous guest had a lot of great ideas which is very important. But ultimately, you can take every gun away in America and somebody will use a bomb. When somebody has an intent to do incredible damage, they're going to find a way to do it. In the case of the Jonesboro shooters we were talking about an 11 and a 12 year old kid who took high powered rifles and gunned down their classmates and teachers after they had got them into a school yard by setting off a fire alarm where they were trapped in a fenced area and couldn't get back in because the door locked after them. They were sitting ducks. And the question was how can an 11 and a 12 year old do this? And the answer is nobody can understand how that can happen.

Huckabee: So you know, people will want to pass new laws, but unless you change peoples' hearts, there I transition maybe to the pastor side. This is a heart issue, it's not something, laws don't change this kind of thing.

Host: You know, invariably, people ask after tragedies like this, 'How could God let this happen?'

Huckabee: Well, you know it's an interesting thing. We ask why there's violence in our schools but we've systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability. That we're not just going to have to be accountable to the police if they catch us but one day we stand before a holy God in judgment. If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that. And so I sometimes when people say, 'Why did God let it happen?' you know, God wasn't armed. He didn't go to the school. But God will be there in the form of a lot of people with hugs and with therapy and a whole lot of ways which I think he will be involved in the aftermath. Maybe we ought to let him in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end.

Then again...when was the last time a Catholic school got shot up?  :papisthmmm:

Odd considering the Kid was home schooled.

[Malthus]

As surprising as it is, only marginally less quackers than Sheilbh's fave-rave pastor fucktard:

Mike Huckabee: Sandy Hook shooting not surprising after God 'removed from our schools'

Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee commented on the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn., on Fox News, saying that Americans have "systematically removed God from our schools" and thus shouldn't be surprised when violence occurs there.

Huckabee: The biggest aftermath of something like this is people are going to look for, 'Why did it happen?' Okay, well the answer is inexplicable. And what do we do to stop it? You can take certain measures, and I think your that previous guest had a lot of great ideas which is very important. But ultimately, you can take every gun away in America and somebody will use a bomb. When somebody has an intent to do incredible damage, they're going to find a way to do it. In the case of the Jonesboro shooters we were talking about an 11 and a 12 year old kid who took high powered rifles and gunned down their classmates and teachers after they had got them into a school yard by setting off a fire alarm where they were trapped in a fenced area and couldn't get back in because the door locked after them. They were sitting ducks. And the question was how can an 11 and a 12 year old do this? And the answer is nobody can understand how that can happen.

Huckabee: So you know, people will want to pass new laws, but unless you change peoples' hearts, there I transition maybe to the pastor side. This is a heart issue, it's not something, laws don't change this kind of thing.

Host: You know, invariably, people ask after tragedies like this, 'How could God let this happen?'

Huckabee: Well, you know it's an interesting thing. We ask why there's violence in our schools but we've systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability. That we're not just going to have to be accountable to the police if they catch us but one day we stand before a holy God in judgment. If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that. And so I sometimes when people say, 'Why did God let it happen?' you know, God wasn't armed. He didn't go to the school. But God will be there in the form of a lot of people with hugs and with therapy and a whole lot of ways which I think he will be involved in the aftermath. Maybe we ought to let him in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end.

Then again...when was the last time a Catholic school got shot up?  :papisthmmm:

Odd considering the Kid was home schooled.

No no no , you got it all wrong - what he's saying is that God deliberately refused to protect these little kids from the homeschooled nut (with the survivalist mom's arsenal) because the victim kids weren't godly enough. If they'd been properly forced to pray in school, God would never have allowed this. But little kids not forced to pray? God turns his back on them.

[Am I the only one with an urge to punch Huckabee right in the nuts about now?  ]

[CountDeMoney]

[Am I the only one with an urge to punch Huckabee right in the nuts about now?  ]

And then some.

[Razgovory]

What do you want to bet the mom was a Gold Bug?

[derspiess]

What do you want to bet the mom was a Gold Bug?

Yeah, pile it on!