Different Perceptions of Reality in the US Presidential Election

[garbon]

But not an issue if it resonates. Isn't that how we got Mr. Hope and Change 2008?

Explain, or I'll just take it you're trying to start bullshit.

Lying. Both use/used lying in presidential contests.

[Queequeg]

False equivalency.

[garbon]

How so? Yes one is lying about others and one is lying about self but still lying, no?  After all, several have said here that Obama never really planned to do most of the things far out libs wanted / rather than Obama was prevented from doing those things.

[CountDeMoney]

But not an issue if it resonates. Isn't that how we got Mr. Hope and Change 2008?

Explain, or I'll just take it you're trying to start bullshit.

Lying. Both use/used lying in presidential contests.

So, "Jeep is moving all production to China" is the same as "Hope and Change".  You should've gone to law school.

[garbon]

If you don't actually plan to bring hope or change, that's even nor insidious.

[Razgovory]

If you don't actually plan to bring hope or change, that's even nor insidious.

Yeah, "if".

[CountDeMoney]

If you don't actually plan to bring hope or change, that's even nor insidious.

48.5 million uninsured Americans think it was hopied and changied.

[sbr]

But not an issue if it resonates. Isn't that how we got Mr. Hope and Change 2008?

Explain, or I'll just take it you're trying to start bullshit.

Lying. Both use/used lying in presidential contests.

So, "Jeep is moving all production to China" is the same as "Hope and Change".  You should've gone to law school.

Who said who is moving what where?

[Razgovory]

Romney, Chrysler motors, jeep production, and China.

[dps]

If you don't actually plan to bring hope or change, that's even nor insidious.

48.5 million uninsured Americans think it was hopied and changied.

Meh, some of us are uninsured by choice and want to stay that way.

[katmai]

But not an issue if it resonates. Isn't that how we got Mr. Hope and Change 2008?

Explain, or I'll just take it you're trying to start bullshit.

Lying. Both use/used lying in presidential contests.

So, "Jeep is moving all production to China" is the same as "Hope and Change".  You should've gone to law school.

Please no, we have enough scum on this board as it is.

[CountDeMoney]

If you don't actually plan to bring hope or change, that's even nor insidious.

48.5 million uninsured Americans think it was hopied and changied.

Meh, some of us are uninsured by choice and want to stay that way.

And that's why it's such a great program:  so people like us don't have to see insurance rates go up because people like you are too stupid not to go through a windshield.

[CountDeMoney]

Who said who is moving what where?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/30/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-obama-chrysler-sold-italians-china-ame/

The Truth-O-Meter Says:
Romney
Says Barack Obama "sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China" at the cost of American jobs.

Mitt Romney says Obama's Chrysler deal undermined U.S. workers

With Ohio's 18 electoral votes very much in play, the Mitt Romney campaign aims to blunt one of Barack Obama's key advantages in that state -- his rescue of the auto industry. The carmakers account for about one out of eight jobs there, and many Ohio assembly line workers are backing Obama for a second term.

The Romney campaign has produced a controversial ad that argues Romney would be better for the auto industry than Obama. In the ad, an announcer says, "Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China. Mitt Romney will fight for every American job." Images of cars being crushed accompany those words.

The not-so-subtle message is that American workers have suffered from the Chrysler deal. In this fact check, we examine whether the sale of Chrysler came at the cost of American jobs.

How Fiat got Chrysler

By early 2008, it was clear that GM and Chrysler were teetering. Both firms had huge debts and high costs. The recession had slowed car sales to a trickle. Chrysler's owner, Cerberus Capital Management, was hunting for a buyer and had been talking to Italian carmaker Fiat. In late 2008, President George W. Bush approved billion dollar loans to the companies to keep them afloat.

On Jan. 20, 2009, the day Obama took the oath of office, Fiat announced it was interested in buying Chrysler. Obama created an auto task force and in March, the task force told Chrysler to cut a deal with Fiat or be cut off from further government loans. In early April, Chrysler filed for bankruptcy and at the same time, announced an alliance with Fiat.

By the end of April, the terms of the deal were complete and by June, it was finalized. Cerberus Capital had lost its stake, and Fiat held 20 percent of the new Chrysler and had full operational control.

Steve Rattner, chair of the president's auto task force, said Fiat was essential to Chrysler's survival.

"If we had been unable to strike this arrangement with Fiat, I believe that we would have allowed Chrysler to liquidate. So it was a great outcome for all concerned," Rattner said.

Aaron Bragman, a senior analyst with IHS Automotive, a financial research group, said the government couldn't sell Chrysler because it never owned it. In fact, the auto industry and Chrysler were in such bad shape, this wasn't a sale at all in the conventional sense.

"Fiat paid nothing for Chrysler," Bragman said, but "they poured MASSIVE resources into the company, such as design help, executive staff and personnel, joint development, engine technology, all sorts of non-cash things that helped Chrysler recover considerably."

Chrysler is now profitable. Laid-off union workers have been rehired, and the company is adding new personnel.

Fiat, Jeeps, and China

When Fiat got Chrysler, it got Jeep. Right before the ad came out, Romney told a crowd in Defiance, Ohio, that plans were afoot to shift the Jeep jobs in Ohio to China.

"I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state Jeep — now owned by the Italians — is thinking of moving all production to China," Romney said.

Romney had been working off an article from Bloomberg News about Fiat's discussions to start making Jeeps again in China. The old Chrysler had assembly plants in China, but they had been idle since 2009.

Romney's words drew an immediate and firm denial from Chrysler headquarters. "Jeep has no intention of shifting production of its Jeep models out of North America to China," the statement said. "A careful and unbiased reading of the Bloomberg take would have saved unnecessary fantasies and extravagant comments."

Bragman, the auto analyst, said Romney's notion that expansion in China comes at a cost to American workers runs counter to the facts. Chrysler's Toledo plant is running at full capacity, and its Detroit plant is at three shifts. Chrysler is building cars in the United States for sale here.

The production of cars in China is a sign of Chrysler's growing strength in overseas markets. It would like to build Jeeps in China to sell in China. It is not outsourcing American auto jobs.

"I'm astonished that more people aren't thrilled by the fact that an American company on the brink of literal oblivion has come back strong enough to now once again be making and selling its products in the hottest auto market in the world," Bragman said. "It is a phenomenal success story, quite frankly, and one that has sadly been bizarrely twisted out of shape for political expediency."

Our ruling

The Romney campaign ad says Obama "sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China" at the cost of American jobs. The ad leaves the clear impression that Jeeps built in China come at the expense of American workers.

The ad miscasts the government's role in Fiat's acquisition of Chrysler, and it misrepresents the outcome. Chrysler's owners had been trying to sell to Italy-based Fiat before Obama took office. The ad ignores the return of American jobs to Chrysler Jeep plants in the United States, and it presents the manufacture of Jeeps in China as a threat, rather than an opportunity to sell cars made in China to Chinese consumers. It strings together facts in a way that presents an wholly inaccurate picture.

We rate the statement Pants on Fire!

Of a presidential campaign full of turds, it was the biggest turd laid.   Kudos for campaign conniving, releasing the TV and radio ads over a weekend without the usual pre-release to the media, though--and not even addressing responses.

[dps]

If you don't actually plan to bring hope or change, that's even nor insidious.

48.5 million uninsured Americans think it was hopied and changied.

Meh, some of us are uninsured by choice and want to stay that way.

And that's why it's such a great program:  so people like us don't have to see insurance rates go up because people like you are too stupid not to go through a windshield.

Yeah, that's right--the people who actually pay their own bills are the freeriders who are making everything  cost more for everybody.  You just go on believing that.

[DGuller]

Yeah, that's right--the people who actually pay their own bills are the freeriders who are making everything  cost more for everybody.  You just go on believing that.

Let's see you pay your bills when get really sick, and require several days of hospital stay.