Arkansas GOP: Against Abortion and For Child Murder

Started by jimmy olsen, October 09, 2012, 01:34:41 AM

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Berkut

Quote from: Phillip V on October 11, 2012, 05:16:47 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 09, 2012, 05:50:19 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on October 09, 2012, 01:45:26 AM
Ban abortions.
Ban the death penalty.

Allow abortions -  because banning abortions just means desperate girls have their insides scraped with clothes hangers. Real sex ed and family planning is the way to reduce abortions as close as possible to nil. I am against abortion; it's just that the alternatives are not no abortion and legal abortion, the alternatives are back alley abortions or safe legal abortion
"Because someone will do it anyways" is not a good enough reason for legalizing something.


Uhh, actually understanding the practical and real limitations of laws and how they are implemented and the real world impact of their passage is in fact damn good reasons for not passing a law, or passing one, or whatever.

Laws that create solutions that are worse than the problem are bad laws, and in fact that is an excellent reason not to pass them.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Viking

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2012, 07:52:32 AM
Banning guns, just like abortion and narcotics, is only effective to the extent that individuals judge their need to be less pressing than the enforcement of the law. And unlike those other items, a true blanket ban is impossible, since the government depends on guns to enforce its ban on guns.

BTW, you people seriously need to stop electing judges.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Grey Fox

Quote from: Berkut on October 11, 2012, 08:05:41 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on October 11, 2012, 05:16:47 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 09, 2012, 05:50:19 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on October 09, 2012, 01:45:26 AM
Ban abortions.
Ban the death penalty.

Allow abortions -  because banning abortions just means desperate girls have their insides scraped with clothes hangers. Real sex ed and family planning is the way to reduce abortions as close as possible to nil. I am against abortion; it's just that the alternatives are not no abortion and legal abortion, the alternatives are back alley abortions or safe legal abortion
"Because someone will do it anyways" is not a good enough reason for legalizing something.


Uhh, actually understanding the practical and real limitations of laws and how they are implemented and the real world impact of their passage is in fact damn good reasons for not passing a law, or passing one, or whatever.

Laws that create solutions that are worse than the problem are bad laws, and in fact that is an excellent reason not to pass them.

See : Prohibition
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

DGuller

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2012, 07:52:32 AM
Banning guns, just like abortion and narcotics, is only effective to the extent that individuals judge their need to be less pressing than the enforcement of the law. And unlike those other items, a true blanket ban is impossible, since the government depends on guns to enforce its ban on guns.
:rolleyes:  That was positively Razian.

merithyn

Quote from: Viking on October 11, 2012, 05:33:02 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on October 11, 2012, 05:16:47 AM
"Because someone will do it anyways" is not a good enough reason for legalizing something.

I think laws should at least have some of their intended consequences. Banning abortion will not end the practice. Women have throughout history take sometimes life threatening risks to end pregnancies. Poison, Throwing themselves down stairs, clothes hangers and "doctors" renting rooms above chinese restaurants among them. Banning abortion will not end the practice, it will merely make it illegal and dangerous unless you are rich.

The way to end abortion is not to ban it, but rather to give girls and women access to family planning and sexual education. Pregnancy should come as a choice rather than a surprise.

Some things you can ban and they go away, e.g. guns. Other things don't go away no matter how much effort you put into banning them, e.g. narcotics.

"Because someone will do it anyways" is a good enough reason to look for other solutions to the problem. Legal (and thus) safe abortions solve the problem of backalley (and thus) unsafe abortions. Solving the problem of ending the life of potential humans is to give the mothers the emotional and physical resources they need to only get pregnant when they wish to and if the do get pregnant outside of that they have the support of society so that they can choose on their own. 

Quote from: Phillip V on October 11, 2012, 05:16:47 AM
"safe abortion" is a strange phrase, as the child is still made to die.

A safe abortion is one where the mother doesn't die.

Quote from: Phillip V on October 11, 2012, 05:16:47 AM
I do, however, understand that legal abortion is much more convenient.

No shit.

This is probably my favorite post of yours ever, Viking.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Valmy

Quote from: Viking on October 11, 2012, 05:33:02 AM
The way to end abortion is not to ban it, but rather to give girls and women access to family planning and sexual education. Pregnancy should come as a choice rather than a surprise.

Yep.  Frustratingly a large percentage of those who oppose abortion also oppose the measures that would eliminate it.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2012, 05:56:58 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 11, 2012, 05:33:02 AM
Some things you can ban and they go away, e.g. guns.

:wacko:

I dunno, Europeans managed to do a job job legislating people out of cars, guns were nothing.

Eddie Teach

#37
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2012, 08:16:51 AM
:rolleyes:  That was positively Razian.

Raz at least makes counter arguments instead of dismissive attempts to be insulting. In essence Viking is saying that bans on guns work because fewer people have guns, but that bans on abortion don't work because some people still have abortions. Do you agree with that?

Edit- or maybe Viking actually believes some gun control laws are 100% effective, in which case I think he's being naive rather than illogical.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

DGuller

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2012, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2012, 08:16:51 AM
:rolleyes:  That was positively Razian.

Raz at least makes counter arguments instead of dismissive attempts to be insulting. In essence Viking is saying that bans on guns work because fewer people have guns, but that bans on abortion don't work because some people still have abortions. Do you agree with that?

Edit- or maybe Viking actually believes some gun control laws are 100% effective, in which case I think he's being naive rather than illogical.
The Razian part was the fact that government would still need to have guns, as if disarming the government is ever the goal of ban on arms.  It's a distracting non-counter-argument.

Valmy

Quote from: Viking on October 11, 2012, 05:33:02 AM
Some things you can ban and they go away, e.g. guns.

Not in this country.  Nothing is more likely to lead to massive violent uprisings than a national ban on guns.  It just will not work here.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Eddie Teach

A government that's actually capable of disarming the populace is one that's invasive enough that the government itself is the problem.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

DGuller

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2012, 09:35:51 AM
A government that's actually capable of disarming the populace is one that's invasive enough that the government itself is the problem.
Nonsense.  You don't need force to disarm the populace, you just need legitimacy.

Razgovory

Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2012, 09:21:56 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2012, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2012, 08:16:51 AM
:rolleyes:  That was positively Razian.

Raz at least makes counter arguments instead of dismissive attempts to be insulting. In essence Viking is saying that bans on guns work because fewer people have guns, but that bans on abortion don't work because some people still have abortions. Do you agree with that?

Edit- or maybe Viking actually believes some gun control laws are 100% effective, in which case I think he's being naive rather than illogical.
The Razian part was the fact that government would still need to have guns, as if disarming the government is ever the goal of ban on arms.  It's a distracting non-counter-argument.

What is with everyone using me as a word?  I am not a a word, I am a human being.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

#43
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2012, 09:51:00 AM
What is with everyone using me as a word?  I am not a a word, I am a human being.

Well Napoleon was a human being but people call his wars Napoleonic.  We refer to your internet campaigns as Razian.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

DGuller

Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2012, 09:51:00 AM
What is with everyone using me as a word?  I am not a a word, I am a human being.
:hug: Nothing personal, it's just a communication shortcut for me.