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The China Thread

Started by Jacob, September 24, 2012, 05:27:47 PM

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crazy canuck

It also does not concede it.  Has there ever been a US person with any governmental authority who has said that the PRC has sovereignty over Taiwan?
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

The Minsky Moment

It's a negative commitment - an agreement not to challenge.  The Pelosi visit is in tension with that commitment.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

crazy canuck

Given everything the US has done to assist Taiwan I think it unlikely the commitment was ever as strong as you say it is.  Although a commitment not to challenge is itself a nuanced concept if you put Pelosi's presence on the wrong side of the line, then surely the US allowing military support and materials to go to Taiwan would also have been a breach of the commitment.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

celedhring

Yeah, I admit that I'm not particularly clued into all the pageantry of international relations, but if I was China I'd take more umbrage at the multibillion military aid than at Nancy Pelosi.

Jacob

#2404
I think it's an amorpheous thing... they take umbrage at everything they can, with a special focus on things they think they can push across the line as "okay, we won't do that again". The long term view is to push everything across, but at any given time anything they can push is a step in the right direction for the PRC regime.

If they could push military aid across, they would. But if they can get the US and others to make concessions on other things to avoid PRC anger, they'll take that.

Bullying by milimetres, basically.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Jacob on August 05, 2022, 03:57:44 PMI think it's an amorpheous thing... they take umbrage at everything they can, with a special focus on things they think they can push across the line as "okay, we won't do that again". The long term view is to push everything across, but at any given time anything they can push is a step in the right direction for the PRC regime.

If they could push military aid across, they would. But if they can get the US and other to make concessions on other things to avoid PRC anger, they'll take that.

Bullying by milimetres, basically.

I agree entirely with your analysis, which is one of the reasons I disagree with the view expressed by Joan.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

Josquius

The stuff about not cooperating on global warming was worrying.
I just hope they're not nuts enough to go "Right, well, who cares about the planet anyway"
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crazy canuck

Quote from: Josquius on August 05, 2022, 04:57:38 PMThe stuff about not cooperating on global warming was worrying.
I just hope they're not nuts enough to go "Right, well, who cares about the planet anyway"

They are the world leaders in the tech - empty words.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Josquius on August 05, 2022, 04:57:38 PMThe stuff about not cooperating on global warming was worrying.
I just hope they're not nuts enough to go "Right, well, who cares about the planet anyway"
They've got their own reasons for wanting to get carbon neutral and are committed to that.

And it sort of goes both ways - I think what convinced Manchin on the decarbonisation spending was apparently the need to avoid Chinese dominance in those areas. Both sides need to cooperate for the good of the world, for both domestically tension that will stop them cooperating might push them more into decarbonising - it's maybe a bit of an irony? :hmm:
Let's bomb Russia!

OttoVonBismarck

Quote from: celedhring on August 05, 2022, 03:37:30 PMYeah, I admit that I'm not particularly clued into all the pageantry of international relations, but if I was China I'd take more umbrage at the multibillion military aid than at Nancy Pelosi.

Part of why I think the multibillion dollars in military aid isn't as much of a flash point is because it was specifically addressed during our normalization negotiations with PRC. It was essentially agreed that "there would be no agreement on this matter, and both sides will continue to disagree." That means PRC will occasionally huff and puff, but because it's kind of a black and white area where both sides agreed to normalize in spite of that outstanding, unresolved disagreement, it has never been as useful for Beijing as other things in their grievance parties.

HVC

Apple sides with China, tells Taiwanese suppliers to label their products as made in China. "Taiwan, China" specifically.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/07/apple-asks-suppliers-in-taiwan-to-label-products-as-made-in-china-report
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Jacob

Yet another reason to avoid Apple products

DGuller

I've said it before, but I think the only way to combat such attacks by China on private citizens and corporations is to make it illegal to give in to China's demands.  By giving companies or individuals the option to succumb to China's demands you're actually exposing them to tremendous pressure by China. 

The way governments work is that they're the ones who deal with geopolitical shit, in exchange for those falling under their protection not having the ability to negotiate their own geopolitical agreements.  That's the deal, and it actually works out to the benefit of the little guy.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: DGuller on August 07, 2022, 10:10:33 PMI've said it before, but I think the only way to combat such attacks by China on private citizens and corporations is to make it illegal to give in to China's demands.  By giving companies or individuals the option to succumb to China's demands you're actually exposing them to tremendous pressure by China. 

The way governments work is that they're the ones who deal with geopolitical shit, in exchange for those falling under their protection not having the ability to negotiate their own geopolitical agreements.  That's the deal, and it actually works out to the benefit of the little guy.

Agreed
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

crazy canuck

DGuller, since this is a regulation for importing into China, your proposal would cause companies who wish to continue to conduct business in China between paying fines in China or fines in whatever country makes it illegal to comply with Chinese regulations.

If your goal is to stop all commercial relations with China then your proposal is a good first step. But otherwise, not so much.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.