Romney: 47% of Americans are losers, don't care about 'em

Started by Queequeg, September 17, 2012, 06:10:32 PM

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crazy canuck

Quote from: dps on September 21, 2012, 10:50:02 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2012, 10:40:29 AM
Quote from: Gups on September 21, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Would someone please explain the difference between payroll and income taxes to an ignorant furriner?

Payroll taxes are things like FICA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax  They cover Medicare, Social Security and other contributions.  These aren't progressive and, instead, are really a form of flat income-tax.

Income taxes are our form of progressive, multi-bracket taxes on earnings that scale based upon income and are levied on top of FICA taxes.

Payroll taxes aren't really flat though--they're regressive, because they're capped at the first $100,000 or so of gross income (see the link in Habbaku's post for the exact dollar figure and more details).

Again, another characteristic of payroll taxes across jurisdictions it seems.

dps

Quote from: crazy canuck on September 21, 2012, 10:50:56 AM
Quote from: dps on September 21, 2012, 10:50:02 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2012, 10:40:29 AM
Quote from: Gups on September 21, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Would someone please explain the difference between payroll and income taxes to an ignorant furriner?

Payroll taxes are things like FICA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax  They cover Medicare, Social Security and other contributions.  These aren't progressive and, instead, are really a form of flat income-tax.

Income taxes are our form of progressive, multi-bracket taxes on earnings that scale based upon income and are levied on top of FICA taxes.

Payroll taxes aren't really flat though--they're regressive, because they're capped at the first $100,000 or so of gross income (see the link in Habbaku's post for the exact dollar figure and more details).

Again, another characteristic of payroll taxes across jurisdictions it seems.

Yeah, and to address a point you made earlier about them affecting the employer's bottom line--if you're not familiar with how US federal taxes work, the income tax on employees incomes doesn't really affect the employer at all--the employer simply withhold the appropriate amount from the employee's paycheck.  SS tax, those does affect the bottom line, because half of it is essentially hidden from the workers--the employer is assessed a tax equal to that withhelf from the employee's paycheck.  In other words, the SS tax is actually twice as high as it seems to be, because half of it is paid by the employer.

Habbaku

Quote from: dps on September 21, 2012, 10:50:02 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2012, 10:40:29 AM
Quote from: Gups on September 21, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Would someone please explain the difference between payroll and income taxes to an ignorant furriner?

Payroll taxes are things like FICA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax  They cover Medicare, Social Security and other contributions.  These aren't progressive and, instead, are really a form of flat income-tax.

Income taxes are our form of progressive, multi-bracket taxes on earnings that scale based upon income and are levied on top of FICA taxes.

Payroll taxes aren't really flat though--they're regressive, because they're capped at the first $100,000 or so of gross income (see the link in Habbaku's post for the exact dollar figure and more details).

Right.
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merithyn

Quote from: dps on September 21, 2012, 10:56:53 AM
Yeah, and to address a point you made earlier about them affecting the employer's bottom line--if you're not familiar with how US federal taxes work, the income tax on employees incomes doesn't really affect the employer at all--the employer simply withhold the appropriate amount from the employee's paycheck.  SS tax, those does affect the bottom line, because half of it is essentially hidden from the workers--the employer is assessed a tax equal to that withhelf from the employee's paycheck.  In other words, the SS tax is actually twice as high as it seems to be, because half of it is paid by the employer.

This is exactly what killed my job with The Toffee Lady. She could afford to pay my salary. What she couldn't afford were all the taxes that came with it. We discussed lowering my salary, but it didn't lower the taxes enough to make it worthwhile.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Jacob

Quote from: Rasputin on September 21, 2012, 09:59:50 AMDo you really think america has 140,000,000 seniors and disabled people or are you just a full time troll now?

If you're going to be outraged about the number lazy non-tax paying drains on society gleefully sucking off the tit of welfare, you should probably not include people in the total if, you know, you don't want them to be included in the total. It seems intellectually dishonest. So the 47% number isn't going to fly if you're not including seniors, the disabled, soldiers in combat zones etc in the target of your ire.

Quoteare you not the least bit bothered that the class of federal income tax payer has been reduced to just 53% of the population and there are calls to tax these people more?

Why would that bother me? Why is 53% so bad? Is it some sort of historic low?

Quotedo you not understand that when you raise taxes on a guy that can chose who to hire and fire and to whom to give raises or ask for salary or benefit decreases that in the end you actually pass the pain right back to those 47%?

No, I do not understand that.

But if you believe that, why are you complaining? You are going to pass the pain on to the people who are working for you anyways.

It is very noble of you, however, to be concerned about the negative impact on poor people of an increase in your personal tax burden.

Quoteor instead are you just too busy being outraged that mitt only paid 14% of his gross income to notice that that means mitt paid 2,800,000 in income taxes to a bloated federal government that cannot get out of its own way?

We don't know what Mitt's been paying in taxes, do we?

As for complaining about a "bloated federal government" I don't give that much weight at all. Now, if you're willing to talk about specific reductions that you believe are feasible to make, then that has some meaning; but "bloated federal government" is purely emotive hot air.

CountDeMoney

Lemonjello keeps his bullion anchored under his boat.

Eddie Teach

Quote from: merithyn on September 21, 2012, 11:28:27 AM
This is exactly what killed my job with The Toffee Lady. She could afford to pay my salary. What she couldn't afford were all the taxes that came with it. We discussed lowering my salary, but it didn't lower the taxes enough to make it worthwhile.

Is Toffee Lady still in business?
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

dps

Quote from: Jacob on September 21, 2012, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: Rasputin on September 21, 2012, 09:59:50 AMDo you really think america has 140,000,000 seniors and disabled people or are you just a full time troll now?

If you're going to be outraged about the number lazy non-tax paying drains on society gleefully sucking off the tit of welfare, you should probably not include people in the total if, you know, you don't want them to be included in the total. It seems intellectually dishonest. So the 47% number isn't going to fly if you're not including seniors, the disabled, soldiers in combat zones etc in the target of your ire.

I think his point was that seniors and the disabled don't make up all the 47%, or even the majority of them, and he thought that you were suggesting that they did.

garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: dps on September 21, 2012, 12:33:05 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 21, 2012, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: Rasputin on September 21, 2012, 09:59:50 AMDo you really think america has 140,000,000 seniors and disabled people or are you just a full time troll now?

If you're going to be outraged about the number lazy non-tax paying drains on society gleefully sucking off the tit of welfare, you should probably not include people in the total if, you know, you don't want them to be included in the total. It seems intellectually dishonest. So the 47% number isn't going to fly if you're not including seniors, the disabled, soldiers in combat zones etc in the target of your ire.

I think his point was that seniors and the disabled don't make up all the 47%, or even the majority of them, and he thought that you were suggesting that they did.

He's also conflating two things.  People who collect government assistance and people who don't pay Federal income tax.  It's entirely possible that someone doesn't pay federal income tax and doesn't get government assistance.  It's also possible that someone does pay Federal income tax and does get government assistance.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

merithyn

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 21, 2012, 12:24:09 PM
Quote from: merithyn on September 21, 2012, 11:28:27 AM
This is exactly what killed my job with The Toffee Lady. She could afford to pay my salary. What she couldn't afford were all the taxes that came with it. We discussed lowering my salary, but it didn't lower the taxes enough to make it worthwhile.

Is Toffee Lady still in business?

For the time being. She's been looking to sell for months, and she has a full-time job on top of working the toffee place. She is: tired.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

CountDeMoney

Quote from: garbon on September 21, 2012, 12:59:05 PM
OMG, now we know what Romney paid in taxes! :w00t:

For 2011, when he, his lawyers and accountants knowingly operated under the assumption of a presidential run?  Meh, who cares.

The tax returns from when he wasn't running for office would be much more interesting and enlightening.


crazy canuck

Quote from: dps on September 21, 2012, 10:56:53 AM
Yeah, and to address a point you made earlier about them affecting the employer's bottom line--if you're not familiar with how US federal taxes work, the income tax on employees incomes doesn't really affect the employer at all--the employer simply withhold the appropriate amount from the employee's paycheck.  SS tax, those does affect the bottom line, because half of it is essentially hidden from the workers--the employer is assessed a tax equal to that withhelf from the employee's paycheck.  In other words, the SS tax is actually twice as high as it seems to be, because half of it is paid by the employer.

Yeah, that was my point.  Payroll taxes directly hit the employers bottom line and make employing someone that much more expensive.

CountDeMoney

#388
Quote"Stop it. This is hard. You want to try it? Get in the ring.
This is hard and, you know, it's an important thing that we're doing right now and it's an important election and it is time for all Americans to realize how significant this election is and how lucky we are to have someone with Mitt's qualifications and experience and know-how to be able to have the opportunity to run this country."
--Ann Romney, First Lady candidate

derspiess

Quote"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country."
--Michelle Obama, First Lady
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall