1 year on, Occupy is in disarray; spirit lives on

[mongers]

I don't think so. Yours is the first post to mention legitimacy.  Most recent discussion stemmed off of Yi responding to Ide's comments about people not listening who say OWS didn't have a message.

They did have a message which is what I meant by legitimacy...just no solutions.  Which I do not judge them too much for because nobody really does. 

Their message is that the elites have let us down and it is the people, not them, who are suffering for their mistakes.

Indeed, and we're not out of the woods yet.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'd regard them as a symptom, one of many. They didn't come up with any solutions, but then.......they are young and therefore a bit naive and useless 

When I was a youngster the turnout for UK General Elections was over 80% and 95% of those voted for the two major parties. Each party had about 2m members. The turnout in the most recent General election was only 65% and the two largest parties got only 64% of those votes. The two major parties each have memberships of only 200k or so, or only 300 people per parliamentary constituency. Where the government used to get a mandate of close to 50% of those entitled to vote it now is lucky to get 25%. Meanwhile they draw from an increasingly limited pool of chancers and political hacks for their town and county councillors and members of parliament, the proportion of "real" people with a hinterland outside politics engaging in politics declines remorselessly.

I really think we are entering a post-democratic age. Of course, at least in the UK, not many people seem to care about that 

[mongers]

Shall I post what I said on another website about the 'pointlessness of occupy and protest. This in response to saying both the world is collapsing about us, there needs to be a completely new system not based on capital and that protest never achieved anything.

Statements don't become indisputable facts just because you capitalise the word.
What human endeavour isn't in some sense conducted in vain ?
However, I think protest does work if those participating feel it is of benefit to themselves and others, whether it's an efficient use of their our own time, is something to be considered by the individuals involved.

Personally I'm not keen on "protest for protest's sake", but at the very least it does exercise and help maintain one of our basic democratic rights.
And so long as it doesn't intentionally set out to curtail the rights of others, I think it should be applauded.

Of course there's an argument to me made that there has to be a second and third stage of activity that builds upon the initial protest, but since I don't see many people, anywhere, building their own 'New Jerusalems' then it's a bit rich to just sit around and criticise others efforts without demonstrating how you yourself are building a better future/world.

My own opinion is, for the moment a well focused protest, that's internally coherent, is a good first stage.

[mongers]

I'd regard them as a symptom, one of many. They didn't come up with any solutions, but then.......they are young and therefore a bit naive and useless 

When I was a youngster the turnout for UK General Elections was over 80% and 95% of those voted for the two major parties. Each party had about 2m members. The turnout in the most recent General election was only 65% and the two largest parties got only 64% of those votes. The two major parties each have memberships of only 200k or so, or only 300 people per parliamentary constituency. Where the government used to get a mandate of close to 50% of those entitled to vote it now is lucky to get 25%. Meanwhile they draw from an increasingly limited pool of chancers and political hacks for their town and county councillors and members of parliament, the proportion of "real" people with a hinterland outside politics engaging in politics declines remorselessly.

I really think we are entering a post-democratic age. Of course, at least in the UK, not many people seem to care about that 

Some sound points there, Tricky.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Just noted a telling slip in my post mongers, I said "their town and county councillors and members of parliament"..........of course it should be "our  etc" 

[mongers]

Just noted a telling slip in my post mongers, I said "their town and county councillors and members of parliament"..........of course it should be "our  etc" 

Yes as you say, I guess it underlines a sub-conscious assumption that one has to be a bit odd to want to stand in these elections.

Personally I'd think I was somewhat odd, if I decided to stand in a local election on a major party ticket. 

[Valmy]

I don't see how any of that counters Yi's point that it was...pointless.

Ok then we go back to my original opinion that just because they had no solutions does not mean it was pointless.  I think it had a very important point, one that is symptomatic of the challenges we face.  Hence we are arguing in circles.  You mind explaining then what makes it pointless besides just insisting it was and making me guess why?

[garbon]

I don't see how any of that counters Yi's point that it was...pointless.

Ok then we go back to my original opinion that just because they had no solutions does not mean it was pointless.  I think it had a very important point, one that is symptomatic of the challenges we face.  Hence we are arguing in circles.  You mind explaining then what makes it pointless besides just insisting it was and making me guess why?

Why was it pointless? I don't think it accomplished much of anything. I guess it briefly sent a message but ultimately it wasn't one that anyone cared to pay attention to (elite or non-elites).  I don't really understand the point of movement if you can't cause some sort of change or at least be a step towards change. I don't see any steps forwards stemming from OWS.

Even in articles that purport to say that OWS was important, I can't help taking away that it is important because it was important.

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/09/18/the-importance-of-occupy/

[dps]

I don't see how any of that counters Yi's point that it was...pointless.

Ok then we go back to my original opinion that just because they had no solutions does not mean it was pointless.  I think it had a very important point, one that is symptomatic of the challenges we face.  Hence we are arguing in circles.  You mind explaining then what makes it pointless besides just insisting it was and making me guess why?

Well, you said earlier that it was a left-wing version of the Tea Party movement, and I agree with that for the most part--both started out a expressions of general discontent with the way things were going;  the Tea Party movement took a couple months or so to assume a rightist character, while the Occupy movement took on a leftist tone much more quickly (probably because the Tea Party movement had already drawn in those who were discontented but essentially conservative).   To me, though, the real difference between the 2 isn't the distinction between left-wing and right-wing, but that the Tea Party movement began to basically run slates of candidate in (mostly) Republican primaries, while the Occupy movement
(to my knowledge) never endorsed any political candidates to any significant degree.

It seems to me that, while I suspect that he is largely trolling, CdM has a point--if you want to bring about change, you either have attempt to overthrow the system (which is going to entail violence at some point), or work to change the system from within (which in a democratic society entails contesting elections).  The Tea Party movement went with the latter;  the Occupy movement didn't really embrace either, and therefore didn't accomplish much.

[Admiral Yi]

I couldn't disagree more.  Sometimes you need to make those in power know the natives are restless.  I mean obviously if there is something obvious to be done sure that really helps but all that is required to protest is a grievence.  That grievance can be perfectly justified without necessarily having a program of reform.  Especially in this case because nobody really has any idea how to fix the problems.  I mean we are demanding something of the hoi polloi we are not getting from elites.

All that is required to protest is a pulse.  In order for the protest to be taken seriously you need a program, as Guppy and Beeb have pointed out.  Otherwise it's just an infant throwing a temper tantrum.  "I don't like bankers.  Wah!"

[Darth Wagtaros]

http://www.spreecast.com/events/occupy-movement-one-year-later

One of my droogs asked me to see if I knew anybody interested in a spreecast discussion on the Occupy movement.  It has some talk show hosts and such discussing it at 5pm EST today.