Reuters: US ambassador to Libya dead

[Sheilbh]

The myth is what matters the truth doesn't. What the USA does or does not do is almost incidental since how it is portrayed that matters. The actions of the USA and Israel are always protrayed as evil as possible regardless of what they do. The US gets blamed for what the dictator does AND it gets blamed for trying to overthrow him. There are no good actions that would satisfy the arabs. The very nature of US power and wealth is in and of it self insulting.

I wouldn't oppose myth and truth. A myth is true, it's the way we explain our histories to ourselves and that matters because it influences our values and the society we are even if it isn't a nuanced academic history. I always think of the Reformation, it's only in the last fifty years that a more accurate picture's emerged. That it wasn't necessarily popular, it wasn't a moment of English liberation and that Henry was a tyrant. But I don't think you can easily understand lots of subsequent English history without knowing the myth of the Reformation. Suez is, to Egypt, what freedom at midnight is to India. It's the moment they defeated the old colonial powers and asserted their own national independence. That they did it themselves is the useful myth though it is inaccurate because it misses the Cold War angle which was crucial.

Aside from that I think your view is racism laced with cod anthropology and bullshit philosophising, reasoning with yourself to reach your determined conclusions. The Libyans and Kuwaitis have reason to be grateful to the Us and in Libya 54% have a positive opinion of the US and US leadership. I think most Arabs have no reason to be grateful.

I'm incidentally not. Criticising US policy in general. They wanted stability, containment and security for Israel which were all sensible goals. That was delivered by supporting friendly regimes. But don't follow that policy and then expect the people to thank you.

Apparently the Libyan government's taking advantage of the popular feeling, they're forcing extremist militias out of their bases across the country. Impressive use of the momentum.

[Sheilbh]

"Support for authoritarian regimes" seems to consist for the most part of recognizing a state diplomatically and conducting commerce with them.  By that token every country in the world (that I know of) has been "supporting authoritarian regimes" in the Middle East.  Do the people there have a legitimate grievance with the whole world?  Do the people of Cuba have a legitimate grievance with the whole world except the US?

And extensive military aid to say Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Egypt and Bahrain. Also security services cooperation. So it's closer to Russia and Cuba than Canada. As I say for the last sixty years I think it's been a fair policy but expecting gratitude seems a bit much.

[Admiral Yi]

And extensive military aid to say Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Egypt and Bahrain. Also security services cooperation. So it's closer to Russia and Cuba than Canada. As I say for the last sixty years I think it's been a fair policy but expecting gratitude seems a bit much.

Military "aid" to Saudi and Bahrain?  We give them free money??

Jordan I agree is the one true client state in the region.  It also happens to have one of the most popular governments.

[Sheilbh]

Aid in exchange for bases and cooperation historically. Which'll reassure everyone in Jeddah.

I don't know about the popularity of the government (and I love a Hashemite) but according to Pew Jordan tends to be one of the most anti-American and anti-west countries in the region.

[Viking]

Aside from that I think your view is racism laced with cod anthropology and bullshit philosophising,

You can take your copy of Orientalism and shove it up your ass. Bernard Lewis is not a "cod" anthropologist or a bullshit philosopher. I don't discuss with people who discuss with racists, so I won't be discussing anything with you until you retract your accusation and apologize for calling me a racist. This is unacceptable behavior on your part.

If I were a pansy and on another forum I'd report you to a mod for that.

[grumbler]

We are complicit in that oppression, and that's the way it's going to be seen.  Just like the "Palestinian Street" sees the Israelis suppressing the Palestinians with American-made Apaches, your average Arabian knucklehead in Riyahd isn't going to make the distinction "oh, it's just the US government making diplomatic and military deals with the Saudi government" when they're getting the business end of an American-made M-16 to the head. 
You seem to ascribe the same level of education and knowledge of current events that you have to the average Arab knucklehead.  That would be incorrect.

I'll bookmark this passage for when anyone asks me what a self-hating American sounds like.

By your logic, the US is complicit in every eveil regime and evil deed since 1776, because the US didn't stop it.  Of course, every other country is equally complicit, so you get to diffuse responsibility away from the people actually committing the acts.

Meh, selling Saddam a few weapons in the late 70s when he was a bona fide Soviet state client isn't the same as stabilizing the House of Saud through both military and economic means;  it's not like oil companies had compounds of Americans living separate, distinct lives in Saddam's Baghdad like we've had in Saudi Arabia for decades.

The US didn't sell Saddam any weapons.

[grumbler]

the only regime we can honestly be accused of helping create there is the Shah's in Iran

The US didn't create "the Shah's" regime in Iran. 

[grumbler]

In addition the national myth about Suez emphasises the success of Arab nationalism over both Israel and the old colonial powers, given that both the US and USSR roles are not going to attract gratitude.

So the Arabs are not grateful even when they should be?  That was Yi's point.

[grumbler]

They wanted stability, containment and security for Israel which were all sensible goals. That was delivered by supporting friendly regimes. But don't follow that policy and then expect the people to thank you.

I agree with this for the most part.  However, the US government criticized even those "friendly" governments when they enacted oppressive measures.  That the criticism was much milder than it was for similar measures by "unfriendly" governments (and remained verbal rather than via action) is certainly enough to give pause to anyone thinking the US was altruistic in the region.

I think that Yi's point is that the US gets little or no credit in the Arab world for those times it did act in the interests of the Arabs, because it is easier for uneducated or undereducated Arabs (as so many others) to see the world in black and white.

I don't think this will change any time soon.

[Viking]

the only regime we can honestly be accused of helping create there is the Shah's in Iran

The US didn't create "the Shah's" regime in Iran. 

You may have been there, but the US government admitted that it did it. So, no, the US participated in "helping create ... the Shah's [regime] in Iran".

[jimmy olsen]

You talked about Arab gratitude. My point is that, with the exception of Libya, I can't think of a single Arab nation who should feel grateful towards the US. That area's like your Warsaw Pact.

Kuwait?

[CountDeMoney]

We are complicit in that oppression, and that's the way it's going to be seen.  Just like the "Palestinian Street" sees the Israelis suppressing the Palestinians with American-made Apaches, your average Arabian knucklehead in Riyahd isn't going to make the distinction "oh, it's just the US government making diplomatic and military deals with the Saudi government" when they're getting the business end of an American-made M-16 to the head. 
You seem to ascribe the same level of education and knowledge of current events that you have to the average Arab knucklehead.  That would be incorrect.

I'll bookmark this passage for when anyone asks me what a self-hating American sounds like.

By your logic, the US is complicit in every eveil regime and evil deed since 1776, because the US didn't stop it.  Of course, every other country is equally complicit, so you get to diffuse responsibility away from the people actually committing the acts.

So the US hasn't had a nasty public relations problem in the Middle East, and with the average Egyptian in particular, for the last several decades.  Everything's just peachy over there.  Roger that.

[dps]

We are complicit in that oppression, and that's the way it's going to be seen.  Just like the "Palestinian Street" sees the Israelis suppressing the Palestinians with American-made Apaches, your average Arabian knucklehead in Riyahd isn't going to make the distinction "oh, it's just the US government making diplomatic and military deals with the Saudi government" when they're getting the business end of an American-made M-16 to the head. 
You seem to ascribe the same level of education and knowledge of current events that you have to the average Arab knucklehead.  That would be incorrect.

I'll bookmark this passage for when anyone asks me what a self-hating American sounds like.

By your logic, the US is complicit in every eveil regime and evil deed since 1776, because the US didn't stop it.  Of course, every other country is equally complicit, so you get to diffuse responsibility away from the people actually committing the acts.

So the US hasn't had a nasty public relations problem in the Middle East, and with the average Egyptian in particular, for the last several decades.  Everything's just peachy over there.  Roger that.

I don't think anybody denies we have a PR problem there;  the question is how deservedly so.

[CountDeMoney]

I don't think anybody denies we have a PR problem there;  the question is how deservedly so.

And my argument is not whether it's deserved or not, but how it appears to the average dune coon under Saudi and Egyptian not-so-nice guys.  But apparently I'm apologizing for America or something.

[Razgovory]

Going to have to go with Viking with this.  The Arabs are a very proud people with a superiority complex.  They are simply envious of American power.