25 years old and deep in debt

[Phillip V]

Yeah, boning the help is a good idea. You plebes. 

No one said anything about boning.

[Ed Anger]

We know what was on your mind.

[Eddie Teach]

She's just there to get Phil turned on enough he can put another baby in his wife.

[Camerus]

If anything, it would be middle class mores that would *prevent* boning the help.   

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah, boning the help is a good idea. You plebes. 

Look who's talking.  Mr. 1%er doesn't like to share good ideas as intellectual property.

[Ed Anger]

Yeah, boning the help is a good idea. You plebes. 

Look who's talking.  Mr. 1%er doesn't like to share good ideas as intellectual property.

Wait..what? Remind me of what I've done.

[Phillip V]

"CUNY Students Confront War Criminal David Petraeus"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIbl28O99Lg

[garbon]

How embarrassing for them. One kid can't even put on his shirt properly.

[CountDeMoney]

September 13, 2013
New Metric for Colleges: Graduates' Salaries
By JAMES B. STEWART

U.S. News & World Report released its eagerly anticipated annual rankings of universities and colleges this week, and two of the usual suspects — Princeton University and Williams College — came out on top. Prospective students and their parents can evaluate these institutions on a variety of measures deemed important by U.S. News.

What they won't find is any way to assess what some consider the most important issue in this still-tough economy: How much can graduates of these schools expect to earn?

For those answers, long a taboo within the hallowed walls of academia, they can turn to PayScale.com. Like U.S. News, PayScale this week released its latest rankings of colleges and universities. But its rankings are all about incomes and jobs. It ranks over a thousand institutions by the average earnings of their graduates. It also calculates and ranks the average return on investment for a college and the percentage of graduates holding jobs with "high meaning." Some of those results may come as a shock, especially to graduates of some prestigious colleges.

There's a fairly high correlation between the reputation and selectivity-weighted rankings of U.S. News and the future earnings measures of PayScale. Ivy League graduates do quite well by both measures, with Princeton ranked sixth and Harvard eighth in PayScale's rankings based on "midcareer median salary."

But many liberal arts colleges suffer in the comparison, including some prestigious ones. Oberlin, 25th on the U.S. News list of national liberal arts colleges, is 218th on the PayScale ranking; Colorado College, 31 on the U.S. News list, is 291; and Grinnell, at 17 on U.S. News, is 366.

Elon University, ranked by U.S. News as the No. 1 regional university in the South, is a distant 587 on PayScale's list.

And there's a notable gender gap. Women's colleges rank especially low: Wellesley (U.S. News, 7) is 304; Barnard (U.S. News, 32) is 221; Smith (U.S. News, 20) is 455; and Bryn Mawr (U.S. News, 30) is 562. (A PayScale spokeswoman said that's because the women's colleges still don't produce enough graduates in engineering, science and technology, the fields that draw the highest salaries.)

The top of the list is dominated by engineering schools, including Harvey Mudd College (16 on the U.S. News ranking of liberal arts colleges, first on PayScale's); the California Institute of Technology (U.S. News, 10; PayScale, 3); Stevens Institute of Technology (U.S. News, 82; tied for third place on PayScale); and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (U.S. News, 7; PayScale, 11). The Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology in Terre Haute, Ind., isn't even ranked by U.S. News but ties for 20 on PayScale — ahead of the University of Notre Dame (24). The national military academies, as well as the Virginia Military Institute, also rank high on PayScale's list.

PayScale's rankings are just one manifestation of a growing nationwide movement toward quantifying the outcomes of college education based on economic factors like income and employment. The Obama administration wants to rank colleges by tuition, graduation rates, debt and earnings of graduates, and use the rankings to influence federal financial aid to students.

But this can lead to some absurd and potentially alarming conclusions.

In Virginia, the top-ranked college based on graduates' first-year income isn't the nationally known Washington and Lee University, the University of Richmond, the College of William and Mary or even Thomas Jefferson's University of Virginia. It's the Jefferson College of Health Sciences.

"People are desperate to measure something, so they seize on the wrong things," Mark Edmundson, a professor of English at the University of Virginia (PayScale, 76), told me this week. "I'm not against people making a living or prospering. But if the objective of an education is to 'know yourself,' it's going to be hard to measure that."

Professor Edmundson is author of the recent book "Why Teach? In Defense of a Real Education," which argues that education should transform students by challenging and expanding their conceptions of themselves. "Self-realization doesn't just mean sitting around discussing Plato and Socrates," he said. "It means figuring out what job or profession would I be best at and what I would enjoy. Too many people are just aiming for a high salary. They struggle through college, they don't like their classes, they don't like their job and they end up failing. If they had taken the time to discover themselves, they might have ended up happy and prosperous."

Andrew Delbanco, director of American studies at Columbia University (PayScale, 54) and author of "College, What Was, Is, and Should Be," said: "It's understandable and entirely legitimate that students and families are worrying about the 'return' on their investment in college — especially as tuition continues to rise too high and too fast. But there are lots of troubling questions that follow. Should returns in dollars be the only measure of educational value? What does that say about the traditional mission of college to educate young people for engaged citizenship, and to provide opportunities for self-fulfillment in ways that do not necessarily line up with income and status?"

Professor Delbanco added that a focus on prospective income to the exclusion of other values "runs a high risk of distorting the college itself and pushing it to become a referral or employment agency even more than it already is."

Even the president of top-ranked Harvey Mudd, Maria Klawe, sounded a cautionary note. "We're proud we're getting the recognition, but it has very little to do with what we do." She noted that Mudd students were required to take 30 percent of their course in the humanities, social sciences or arts, which she said was the highest for any engineering and technology school in the country. Mudd's demanding curriculum and tough grading standards mean "our students aren't picking us for the salaries. They could study at a much less rigorous place and earn the same salaries."

Still, she acknowledged that "parents are relieved their offspring will earn something." She said the median starting salary for last year's graduates who took jobs was $77,500, and 23 graduates, or more than 10 percent of the graduating class, had six-figure starting salaries. Dr. Klawe said that a few years ago, a student landed a $280,000 starting salary after designing a high-speed trading algorithm during his summer internship.

Robert Morse, the director of data research for U.S. News, who is in charge of compiling the college rankings, said it currently did not include income data because it did not consider the data adequately comprehensive or reliable. (PayScale says its rankings are based on data from 1.4 million college graduates.) Should that change — if, for example, the Obama administration requires comprehensive nationwide reporting — U.S. News would use it in the rankings, Mr. Morse said.

"People are investing a lot of money in a four-year degree, in some cases $240,000, and they're entitled to know what they can expect when they finish," he said. "But you have to be very careful how you analyze the data. Just because Harvey Mudd produces science, engineering and technology graduates who get high salaries, does that make it the best school in America? How do you value teaching and other fields valuable to society that aren't paid nearly as much?"

Even proponents of income-based rankings concede that that is just one of many dimensions to consider when choosing a college. Katie Bardaro, lead economist for PayScale's survey, said that the company always made that point. "But prospective students need to consider their potential career success with a degree from that school," she said. "Jobs are harder and harder to come by, student debt is huge, and the costs of schools are rising faster than inflation. We don't see this changing anytime soon."

Mark Schneider, president of College Measures, a venture that is compiling salary data based on both college and field of study and making it available on its Web site, said that "students should choose a college and a career for many reasons, but we believe income data should be in the mix." He added: "If you go to Harvard or Yale, more power to you. But most students go to schools no one has ever heard of. They don't graduate with a great Rolodex. They don't have family wealth behind them. They need to know the likely outcome about the degree and the school they're choosing. This is their one shot and it had better be something that gets them a well-paying job."

Richard Ekman, president of the Council of Independent Colleges, which represents 600 private colleges and universities, said he had concerns "about the simplistic use of any of these indicators." Income data "may be helpful, but no indicator alone should be determinative," he said. "How do you measure the value of graduate school, the Peace Corps or Teach for America, all of which are low-paying? It's scary to see some public official seize on these metrics as the be-all and end-all."

And he vigorously disputed the notion that a liberal arts education should be reserved for the 1 percent. "Private education isn't just for wealthy people or an elite," he said. In part, thanks to aggressive scholarship programs, "the track record for private colleges that admit lots of first-generation and low-income kids is much better than most state universities."

Professor Edmundson agreed that class distinctions were a red herring, and said that even vocational programs would benefit from courses in the humanities. "Everyone by virtue of being a human being should have a right to think about who they are and what might make them successful," he said.

And he challenged the idea that choosing a college or major based on a projected high salary was a sure path to security. "There's a parental myth that at a certain point you can relax and enjoy your golden years if your child is settled and has a stable job in a profession that will bring them a high income. But the truth is, no one is ever settled, disasters can happen, institutions can collapse and even high-paying jobs go away."

His own son, he noted, a recent graduate of the University of Virginia, is working in a bicycle shop and writing a novel.

[Ideologue]

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/2013/06/12/bankruptcy-case-offers-hope-for-student-borrowers

Bankruptcy Case Offers Hope for Student Borrowers

A 10-year court battle waged by Michael Hedlund, a graduate of Willamette Law School, to discharge his student loans has recently ended with a 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decision partially discharging his loans.

Hedlund borrowed about $85,000 to get his undergraduate and law degrees, then failed the bar exam three times. He ultimately took a job as a juvenile counselor. At 33, married and with a child, he declared bankruptcy. His case has potentially large implications for borrowers.

It's pretty well known by now that student loans cannot be discharged through the normal bankruptcy process.

Instead, Congress requires student loan borrowers to initiate an adversary proceeding, a separate lawsuit filed within the bankruptcy case, in which they have to prove that repaying their student loan debt would be an "undue hardship."

In the absence of any further guidance from Congress on what constitutes an undue hardship, most courts now apply what is called the "Brunner standard."

[Find out how to take control of your student loan debt.]

That standard requires a borrower to prove three things: One, that the borrower and any dependents cannot maintain a minimal standard of living based on current income and expenses; two, that additional circumstances indicate this is likely to be the case for a significant portion of the borrower's repayment period; and three, that the borrower made a good faith effort to repay the loans.

The conventional wisdom is that the need for a separate proceeding – for which many bankrupt borrowers will be unable to afford a lawyer – and the stringency with which courts apply this standard make it virtually impossible for borrowers to discharge their student loans. And, in some respects, Hedlund's case confirms this.

Hedlund was represented pro bono by Morrison and Foerster, one of the top bankruptcy firms in the country, which is unlikely to be an option for most borrowers. And, of course, Hedlund was a law school graduate himself.

It's also notable that, due in part to some unusual circumstances such as a judge passing away, it took Hedlund nearly 10 years to earn the partial discharge. Many borrowers will not want to persist through litigation nearly that lengthy.

[Consider the future of student loan debt.]

On the other hand, Hedlund settled with one of the holders of his student loans shortly after filing his adversary proceeding. Just the possibility of obtaining a settlement should encourage needy borrowers to move forward with an adversary proceeding.

As important for future plaintiffs, the 9th Circuit Court also upheld the bankruptcy court's relatively reasonable application of the facts in Hedlund's case to the Brunner standard.

For example, the 9th Circuit Court agreed there was considerable evidence the family's expenses, including two cell phones for the family and leasing a reliable car could be seen as reasonable and that the excess expenses – including cable and children's haircuts – could be deemed marginal.

The bankruptcy court had also rejected arguments that Hedlund should find another part-time job while noting that his wife could be expected to work three days a week rather than one. The 9th Circuit Court agreed with this analysis as well, holding there was considerable evidence Hedlund had maximized his income and declining to attribute his wife's underemployment to bad faith. These parameters provide hope – and, more importantly, good precedent – for future plaintiffs who want to earn discharges without suffering complete material deprivation or working abnormally long hours.

[Discover how the Student Loan Fairness Act could help borrowers.]

The 9th Circuit Court also upheld relatively reasonable parameters regarding the effort Hedlund had to make to repay his loans. For example, it agreed with the bankruptcy court that Hedlund was justified in rejecting repayment options offered by his loan servicer that would have entailed monthly payments he could not have afforded and that would still have meant repaying his loans for thirty years.

Overall, Hedlund's case is hopeful precedent. Borrowers should also be aware of a study by Jason Iuliano which suggests that in 2007 alone, there were 69,000 borrowers who were good candidates for relief but fewer than 300 actually attempted to discharge their loans. Iuliano's study also finds evidence that plaintiffs filing adversary proceedings on their own are as likely to prevail as those with attorneys.

The Student Loan Ranger continues to lobby for legislation such as The Private Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2013 and The Fairness for Struggling Students Act of 2013 that will restore fairness to the bankruptcy code for private student loan borrowers and to advocate for legislation that will reinstate bankruptcy protections for federal student loan borrowers. In the meantime, Hedlund's experience and Iuliano's study argues that more borrowers in bankruptcy should assert their rights under the undue hardship standard – even if they have to represent themselves.

Cool.

[CountDeMoney]

Hedlund borrowed about $85,000 to get his undergraduate and law degrees, then failed the bar exam three times.

Cool.

Not really, no. 

[Ideologue]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0922-money-makeover-post-20130922,0,2034018,full.story

By Ronald D. White Sep. 20 2013

Law school grad learns how to pay off a heavy debt

With $215,000 in student loans, law school grad learns to cut his balance and stash cash

Andrew Carmichael Post is used to fast-tracking his way through life.

At 13, when most boys are fretting about the perils of girls and middle school, Post was attending Cal State Los Angeles, working on degrees in computer science and applied mathematics. At 18, Post was entering USC Gould School of Law. At 22, Post became a member of the State Bar of California.

Along the way, the U.S. economy took to the slow track. Like many in his generation facing the worst job market in decades, Post opted to stay in school.

The Altadena resident is now 24 and has landed well-paying work as a programmer for a website operator. But he also faces $215,000 in student loans, with a minimum monthly payment of $2,756.

"It's like some sort of nightmare where someone gave me a bank mortgage but forgot to add the deed to the house," Post quipped.

To save money, Post has moved back into his boyhood bedroom, putting him among the 36% of Americans ages 18 to 31 who still live with their parents. That's the highest percentage in four decades, according to the Pew Research Institute.

Although Post's debt is higher than average, it underscores a growing problem that has begun to affect how quickly young adults are able to contribute to the U.S. economy, said Lauren Asher, president of the Institute for College Access and Success, an Oakland nonprofit.

"It used to be that people with student debt were more likely to have a home mortgage," Asher said. "Now, they are less likely to have one."

Other experts have called millennials the "failure to launch" generation. There was nothing wrong with Post's launch; it just was just ill-timed.

In 2009, one year before Post would seek a full-time job, "141 employers had attended [on-campus interviews] at USC law school," he said. "The following summer, I competed with 300 people in my year for the attention of only seven private employers and a handful of government agencies."

Unable to secure full-time employment, Post put out his legal shingle. He took on small-business clients with limited budgets. He also fell back on his programming skills for other clients. The pay was difficult to predict.

"I was never really impoverished," Post said, "just terribly inconvenienced by not being able to collect on a legal bill or a programming bill I'd sent out two months earlier. What little stable income I had wasn't enough to get by on. There were times when I had to decide on whether to buy enough gas to get back to court or buy lunch."

Post struggled to avoid feeling discouraged.

"The last time I went into court, I was wearing something that I got at Goodwill," Post said. "The two lawyers on the other side were each wearing suits worth more than my car."

Things are looking up for Post, who estimates his annual income has risen to between $80,000 and $96,000, cobbled together from four sources, including a part-time teaching gig and the new full-time programming job with a 401(k) matching plan.

But he still needs to make the right financial choices to reach his short-term goals: new shoes, his own apartment, a later-model used car rather than his 187,000-mile mid-1990s Toyota sedan, a gym membership, his first smartphone.

Longer term, he's eager to avoid his worst fear: "reaching my 30s, wanting to get married, buy a house, start a family, with bad credit and a lot of this debt still hanging over me."

To fee-only advisor Lara Lamb, director of financial planning for Abacus Wealth Partners, Post is at a crucial phase.

After depriving himself of some of the common perks of a successful twentysomething, Lamb said, Post could reach too quickly for those freedoms "and severely limit his ability to strive for success in several financial areas. Having multiple goals is very important."

Lamb added, "He needs to pare down his debt, but he also needs to build up an emergency fund, repair his credit, get on a budget and begin contributing to his retirement by embracing his company's matching 401(k) plan."

For many of her clients, Lamb advises setting up several bank accounts to aid in budgeting.

One main account collects all of Post's income. Regularly scheduled transfers go to smaller accounts dedicated to paying his debt and other regular bills, building up emergency cash reserves equal to three months of expenses, holding funds for discretionary spending and salting away something for infrequent bills.

Making these transfers automatic means Post doesn't have to think about them as often, Lamb said, "but he still needs to acquire the discipline to accept that when those spending limits have been reached, he can't spend more on those things until the next deposit arrives."

Another key recommendation concerns Post's living situation. Because he gets along well with his mother, who is a physics professor, and his father, who is a former aerospace engineer, Post should remain at home for as long as that feels comfortable, Lamb said.

The reason is that immense minimum student loan payment of $2,756 a month.

Avoiding the typically high cost of leasing an apartment in Los Angeles, plus potential move-in costs such as a security deposit and first and last month's rent, will enable Post to build an emergency fund in just one year, Lamb said.

Then, in Year Two, Post can take the $1,045 a month that went into his emergency cash fund in the first year and add it to his debt payments.

Post, who has student loans from seven sources with interest rates ranging from 4.5% to 8.5%, should apply the extra payments to the most expensive loans, she said.

If Post sticks to the plan and remains at home with his parents, Lamb said, "his debt could be paid off in less than six years."

"For many young people, staying at home wouldn't be something they would want to do," she said. "But given his willingness to do that, and his desire to pay off that debt quickly, this will give him a big head start."

Lamb did have one warning. She is concerned that the large amount of student debt Post faces could drive him to push too hard, "devoting so much of his current income to debt repayment that he doesn't reward himself at all for the success he has begun to achieve."

Lamb described it as being similar to a person so intent on losing a large amount of weight quickly that he diets to excess and ultimately risks failing. Lamb wants to make sure that Post includes regular and reasonable perks, such as continuing to devote resources to his love of drawing.

Post has described himself as a very frugal traveler in the few vacations he has taken.

"He should spend money on areas that he values, such as his art hobby, socializing with friends and travel, so that he can stick to the budget without being driven to binge spend," Lamb said.

Post said he found his new road map almost overwhelming after months of wondering "whether I could ever have good credit."

"It's hard to imagine feeling better right now," Post said. "It feels like I have a future, a good future."

The last line made me throw up in my mouth, a little.

The upshot is that Doogie Howser, J.D., here is smarter than 99% of the population, could have done practically anything, but going to a purportedly "good" law school enslaved him to an unsupportable debt--even at the high and, for most, unrealistic salary he's achieved--and the only reasons he may still make it is because he 1)has a STEM education to fall back on, 2)his parents are good parents, and 3)he's very, very young.  Without these factors, his life would be even worse than it is now, which is to say, it's still pretty bad, and certainly rising to a mere fraction of its potential.

Very, very sad.

[crazy canuck]

It is unclear to me why he didnt get a job related to his law degree.   It is also unclear to me why he went to law school.  Perhaps he always wanted to get a job related to his first degree but though he was too young and so wanted to get the second degree to fill out his skills while he became more age appropriate for the job he wanted.

[Ideologue]

It is unclear to me why he didnt get a job related to his law degree.

Why, it's positively opaque, isn't it?

[The Brain]

Why the fuck did he do law? I've never heard of anyone really bright in Sweden choosing law. It's business, science/engineering or medicine over here.