25 years old and deep in debt

[Malthus]

How about borrowing money to start up a business? Even buying a truck and lawnmower to do some landscaping requires cash.

Note I said typically.  Of course leverage *can* magnify wealth creation.  It can also magnify wealth destruction if your investment goes in the shitter.

The point is not that there can be an upside and a downside - take that as given. If you borrow for pure consuption, or if you borrow to invest and your investment crashes, you can indeed be worse off.

But here's my point: if you can't borrow, it is very difficult to increase your earning powers through entreprenureal means. In short, while borrowing has an upside and a downside, you would find it very difficult to experience any "upside" without access to credit. 

[Malthus]

But having access to credit to increase one's ability to earn is vital.

Agreed.

Btw having a university prof as a dad means you were not poor.

Evidently you do not know my dad. 

But yeah, I certainly came from a family with advantages - everyone in it was highly educated. That did not stop me, personally, from lacking any money as a young dude, particularly when attempting to live on the wages of a potter's assistant. 

[DGuller]

Evidently you do not know my dad. 

But yeah, I certainly came from a family with advantages - everyone in it was highly educated. That did not stop me, personally, from lacking any money as a young dude, particularly when attempting to live on the wages of a potter's assistant. 

Malthus, just because your dad didn't give you allowance when you went to college doesn't make you poor.

[Malthus]

Malthus, just because your dad didn't give you allowance when you went to college doesn't make you poor.

I'm thinking more of the years I spent working after I went to university and realized my degree in anthropology wasn't exactly breaking down employment doors.

I can still remember the flavour of Ramen noodles. 

[Admiral Yi]

The point is not that there can be an upside and a downside - take that as given. If you borrow for pure consuption, or if you borrow to invest and your investment crashes, you can indeed be worse off.

But here's my point: if you can't borrow, it is very difficult to increase your earning powers through entreprenureal means. In short, while borrowing has an upside and a downside, you would find it very difficult to experience any "upside" without access to credit.

No argument.  If you look back, the original proposition was that the system has the effect of making the rich richer and the poor poorer.  The fact that the rich have an option that the poor do not does not prove that thesis.

[Malthus]

The point is not that there can be an upside and a downside - take that as given. If you borrow for pure consuption, or if you borrow to invest and your investment crashes, you can indeed be worse off.

But here's my point: if you can't borrow, it is very difficult to increase your earning powers through entreprenureal means. In short, while borrowing has an upside and a downside, you would find it very difficult to experience any "upside" without access to credit.

No argument.  If you look back, the original proposition was that the system has the effect of making the rich richer and the poor poorer.  The fact that the rich have an option that the poor do not does not prove that thesis.

How about: 'lack of ability to access credit makes it more difficult for the poor to become rich'?

[DGuller]

Malthus, just because your dad didn't give you allowance when you went to college doesn't make you poor.

I'm thinking more of the years I spent working after I went to university and realized my degree in anthropology wasn't exactly breaking down employment doors.

I can still remember the flavour of Ramen noodles. 

Doesn't matter.  Being poor means you have no assets and no social standing to tap into.  It's about not having a choice.  You did not have means at ready disposal for a while, but that was by choice.  Your dad chose not to support you, and you chose not to push the issue.  People that are truly poor don't really have a choice in the matter.

[crazy canuck]

Evidently you do not know my dad. 

But yeah, I certainly came from a family with advantages - everyone in it was highly educated. That did not stop me, personally, from lacking any money as a young dude, particularly when attempting to live on the wages of a potter's assistant. 

I would argue that voluntary poverty is significantly different from real poverty.  If you were ever in real trouble you knew you had a family with some means to assist you.  In other words, you may not have had money to spend but you were never poor.

The biggest part of being poor is the constant threat of not being able to provide the necessities of life.  If you have never missed a proper meal because your parents could not afford to feed you that night/week then I would say you have never been poor.

[DGuller]

Evidently you do not know my dad. 

But yeah, I certainly came from a family with advantages - everyone in it was highly educated. That did not stop me, personally, from lacking any money as a young dude, particularly when attempting to live on the wages of a potter's assistant. 

I would argue that voluntary poverty is significantly different from real poverty.  If you were ever in real trouble you knew you had a family with some means to assist you.  In other words, you may not have had money to spend but you were never poor.

The biggest part of being poor is the constant threat of not being able to provide the necessities of life.  If you have never missed a proper meal because your parents could not afford to feed you that night/week then I would say you have never been poor.

Better said.

[Malthus]

Evidently you do not know my dad. 

But yeah, I certainly came from a family with advantages - everyone in it was highly educated. That did not stop me, personally, from lacking any money as a young dude, particularly when attempting to live on the wages of a potter's assistant. 

I would argue that voluntary poverty is significantly different from real poverty.  If you were ever in real trouble you knew you had a family with some means to assist you.  In other words, you may not have had money to spend but you were never poor.

The biggest part of being poor is the constant threat of not being able to provide the necessities of life.  If you have never missed a proper meal because your parents could not afford to feed you that night/week then I would say you have never been poor.

Fair enough, I was never "poor" in that sense, because if I was literally dying of starvation my parents would not let that happen, and had the ability to prevent it. Not that they would give me a dime otherwise, mind.

What simple, one-word description should one use to mean, "when I was young I had no money because I could not earn very much, what little I did earn went to basic stuff like food and accomodation, my parents had made it perfectly clear it was up to me now and they would not help out [unless I was dying], and I feared that unless I did something different, I never do any better"? I've been using "I was poor" for that.

[crazy canuck]

But Malthus, you always had a saftey net that people who are poor dont have.

You were just the poor little rich kid.

[Malthus]

But Malthus, you always had a saftey net that people who are poor dont have.

You were just the poor little rich kid.

Fine. Assume I went on being a 'poor little rich kid' and living in communal houses working as a potter's assistant or whatever.

Would I still be a 'poor little rich kid' in my middle 40s, or would I be genuinely "poor"? 

I think what you are missing from the equation is the possibility of actual downward social mobility - something I've seen in my friends (the few I have left) from those days.

[garbon]

How about borrowing money to start up a business? Even buying a truck and lawnmower to do some landscaping requires cash.

Note I said typically.  Of course leverage *can* magnify wealth creation.  It can also magnify wealth destruction if your investment goes in the shitter.

The point is not that there can be an upside and a downside - take that as given. If you borrow for pure consuption, or if you borrow to invest and your investment crashes, you can indeed be worse off.

But here's my point: if you can't borrow, it is very difficult to increase your earning powers through entreprenureal means. In short, while borrowing has an upside and a downside, you would find it very difficult to experience any "upside" without access to credit. 

What percentage of people are actually making money through entrepreneurial means? I mean even if credit was freely available to everyone, I feel like there are lots of people who aren't really in the entrepreneurial vein.

[merithyn]

Fair enough, I was never "poor" in that sense, because if I was literally dying of starvation my parents would not let that happen, and had the ability to prevent it. Not that they would give me a dime otherwise, mind.

What simple, one-word description should one use to mean, "when I was young I had no money because I could not earn very much, what little I did earn went to basic stuff like food and accomodation, my parents had made it perfectly clear it was up to me now and they would not help out [unless I was dying], and I feared that unless I did something different, I never do any better"? I've been using "I was poor" for that.

I believe "not living up to your potential" would work, but that's more than one word.

That being said, I have to agree with DG and CC. Having been truly poor most of my life - no connections, no fall-back, no safety net - your situation and mine are vastly different. On top of that, having educated, well-off parents means that you learned life skills from your youth forward that sustained you, skills that I had to learn on my own as an adult after making a myriad of mistakes learned from my parents.

That doesn't mean that one can't overcome that - my siblings definitely have - but it's much harder.

[crazy canuck]

Evidently you do not know my dad. 

But yeah, I certainly came from a family with advantages - everyone in it was highly educated. That did not stop me, personally, from lacking any money as a young dude, particularly when attempting to live on the wages of a potter's assistant. 

I would argue that voluntary poverty is significantly different from real poverty.  If you were ever in real trouble you knew you had a family with some means to assist you.  In other words, you may not have had money to spend but you were never poor.

The biggest part of being poor is the constant threat of not being able to provide the necessities of life.  If you have never missed a proper meal because your parents could not afford to feed you that night/week then I would say you have never been poor.

Fair enough, I was never "poor" in that sense, because if I was literally dying of starvation my parents would not let that happen, and had the ability to prevent it. Not that they would give me a dime otherwise, mind.

What simple, one-word description should one use to mean, "when I was young I had no money because I could not earn very much, what little I did earn went to basic stuff like food and accomodation, my parents had made it perfectly clear it was up to me now and they would not help out [unless I was dying], and I feared that unless I did something different, I never do any better"? I've been using "I was poor" for that.

Now that you have edited this I will respond more fully.

Malthus, you are focusing only on the period after you left your family home.  What about all those years you were growing up?  Hardly poverty.  And I doubt very much your family would have waited until you were on your death bed before they gave you assistance if you really needed it.

Your story is the same as all other upper/middle class kids who went out on their own.  You lived off what you made but you were never poor in the sense that you have never been in situation where you doubted where your next meal might come from.  You have never had to rely on handouts from the community.   Your biggest problem was that in your early years you did not earn enough to replicate the standard of living your parents gave you growing up.  That is not poverty.

I think what you are missing from the equation is the possibility of actual downward social mobility - something I've seen in my friends (the few I have left) from those days

Sure, but the reason I didnt include it is because you didnt actually suffer it.  The potential of downward mobility is something everyone risks to one degree or another.  Except the poor   If you have suffered downward mobility and had in fact become poor then we wouldnt be having this discussion.