Mesoamerican civilizations compared to early Mesopotamia

[derspiess]

Universal Single Payer Health Care presumably.

As long as he doesn't become a Steelers fan, I won't disown him.

[Viking]

As long as he doesn't become a Steelers fan, I won't disown him.

Daddy Promised me a Snake

Now Ben Rothlisberger is my Hero

n.b. I'm not trying to be creepy or anything, but the look on his face is priceless.

[Malthus]

Mesoamerican writing does seem entirely used by the priests to record religious and state records, true.

I don't know if that means that mesopotamian writing is "better" or "more advanced".

And it is true that the Spanish burned almost all of their books.  Since they were held only by the priests, and since they were written in very flamable materials, it was easy to destroy almost every single copy in existence.

This is based on a bunch of unknowns. We do not know that records were all held by priests. For example, we know that the Aztecs had very sophisticated trade (and spying) guilds known as pochteca, but we do not know if they had records. It would make sense if they did, given that they allegedly specialized in long-distance relaying of information. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pochteca

Pochteca (sing. pochtecatl) were professional, long-distance traveling merchants in the Aztec Empire. They were a small, but important class as they not only facilitated commerce, but also communicated vital information across the empire and beyond its borders. The trade or commerce was referred to as pochtecayotl. The pochteca also traveled outside the empire to trade with neighboring lands throughout Mesoamerica. Because of their extensive travel and knowledge of the empire, pochteca were often employed as spies.

The issue isn't simply flammbility, it is decay-ability. The Spanish could not possibly have burnt every copy, what with people hiding stuff. However, records hidden in mesoamerica would not survive a generation of neglect.

[alfred russel]

Malthus, I would like to discuss this, and I used to know a decent amount, but I have forgotten too much.

My understanding is that the nature of the writing system is such that it wasn't practical for ordinary business.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Meanwhile, over at Paradox, they are arguing about whether the Aztec and Inca civilisations were as advanced as 16th century Europe :

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?629364-Petition-to-make-New-World-nations-actually-playable.

[Syt]

I hate how such nations can't even reach their historical size because they can't colonize. How nations that had the largest, wealthiest cities on earth don't even get the tech levels to build a freaking temple. Isn't it ridiculous that a nation like the Inca who had the administrative abilities to govern the Andes Mountains and the medical knowledge to do some brain surgery is apparently given the technology level of an entire nation of retarded inbreeds?

What of the Aztec and Maya with their great understanding of engineering and astronomy that was light years ahead of Europe. Just because Europeans were disease ridden doesn't mean they were light years ahead of the Native Empires in technology. It was only in metalworking and sailing that they were ahead of the world in at this point (1500).

The EU community recognizes that this game is about Europe first and foremost, but the conquest of the New World was one of the most important events in world history. Surely the conquest of the Americas is light years more relevant to Europeans than unique decisions for Japan/China/Korea. New World is relevant from 1492+ while East Asia is not even discovered until 1550 by Portugal and is not even relevant to being conquered until the Dutch start to establish trading posts in 1602.

Oh, Paradox forums, you never fail to entertain.

[Razgovory]

I hate how such nations can't even reach their historical size because they can't colonize. How nations that had the largest, wealthiest cities on earth don't even get the tech levels to build a freaking temple. Isn't it ridiculous that a nation like the Inca who had the administrative abilities to govern the Andes Mountains and the medical knowledge to do some brain surgery is apparently given the technology level of an entire nation of retarded inbreeds?

What of the Aztec and Maya with their great understanding of engineering and astronomy that was light years ahead of Europe. Just because Europeans were disease ridden doesn't mean they were light years ahead of the Native Empires in technology. It was only in metalworking and sailing that they were ahead of the world in at this point (1500).

The EU community recognizes that this game is about Europe first and foremost, but the conquest of the New World was one of the most important events in world history. Surely the conquest of the Americas is light years more relevant to Europeans than unique decisions for Japan/China/Korea. New World is relevant from 1492+ while East Asia is not even discovered until 1550 by Portugal and is not even relevant to being conquered until the Dutch start to establish trading posts in 1602.

Oh, Paradox forums, you never fail to entertain.

Europeans were also ahead in Ruff and codpiece technology.

[dps]

and we can talk about this.

and of course this...

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm

which has Memphis at 30k in 3100 BC and Ur at 65k in 2030 BC compared to Tikal with between 60k and 90k. Four and Three thousand years earlier it must be mentioned. The same source has Babylon reaching the size of Tenochtitlan 300 years after Ur was at 65k.

I think the real issue here is scope of power of the polity building the city both in catchment area and in bureaucratic efficiency. Egypt famously didn't voluntarily do technological innovation but managed to build monster cities with neolithic farming technology.

Memphis in 3100BC is comparable, but Ur in 2000BC was in the middle of the Bronze Age.

It took the Native Americans longer to get to that level of development, but their neolithic cities were substantially bigger than Mesopotamia's neolithic cities.

I don't see how Diamond's thesis has anything to do with it. You'd think with all the advantages he posits the Old World as having their cities would be bigger. We don't know much about the disease burden of the time, many diseases likely hadn't evolved yet. IIRC we don't have evidence for small pox before 1500 BC. Measles had yet to evolve as well.

I don't know that mere population can really indicate how advanced a technological or cultural level a given society has obtained.  Sure, a hunter-gather society is only going to be able to support a limited population, but once you have even primative agriculture, things change.  If your whole society is almost entirely farmers practicing subsistance farming, and you have very fertile land, you can support a LOT of people in a relatively small area.  Take Bangladesh--almost it's entire land area is a very fertile delta, so it has a huge population, even though it's also one of the more impoverished nations on Earth.  Or look at China--it's probably been the most populous nation on Earth thoughout human history (at least at the times it was actually a unified nation) but only at times has it been the most advanced.

[Barrister]

and we can talk about this.

and of course this...

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm

which has Memphis at 30k in 3100 BC and Ur at 65k in 2030 BC compared to Tikal with between 60k and 90k. Four and Three thousand years earlier it must be mentioned. The same source has Babylon reaching the size of Tenochtitlan 300 years after Ur was at 65k.

I think the real issue here is scope of power of the polity building the city both in catchment area and in bureaucratic efficiency. Egypt famously didn't voluntarily do technological innovation but managed to build monster cities with neolithic farming technology.

Memphis in 3100BC is comparable, but Ur in 2000BC was in the middle of the Bronze Age.

It took the Native Americans longer to get to that level of development, but their neolithic cities were substantially bigger than Mesopotamia's neolithic cities.

I don't see how Diamond's thesis has anything to do with it. You'd think with all the advantages he posits the Old World as having their cities would be bigger. We don't know much about the disease burden of the time, many diseases likely hadn't evolved yet. IIRC we don't have evidence for small pox before 1500 BC. Measles had yet to evolve as well.

I don't know that mere population can really indicate how advanced a technological or cultural level a given society has obtained.  Sure, a hunter-gather society is only going to be able to support a limited population, but once you have even primative agriculture, things change.  If your whole society is almost entirely farmers practicing subsistance farming, and you have very fertile land, you can support a LOT of people in a relatively small area.  Take Bangladesh--almost it's entire land area is a very fertile delta, so it has a huge population, even though it's also one of the more impoverished nations on Earth.  Or look at China--it's probably been the most populous nation on Earth thoughout human history (at least at the times it was actually a unified nation) but only at times has it been the most advanced.

China has been the most advanced nation on earth for a good portion of human history.  It's only the last 200 years or so that's been the exception.

[Malthus]

Malthus, I would like to discuss this, and I used to know a decent amount, but I have forgotten too much.

My understanding is that the nature of the writing system is such that it wasn't practical for ordinary business.

Certainly some language systems are better for business than others, but that doesn't mean transacting business was impossible in other languages.

Take for example Roman numerals as opposed to Arabic. Roman numerals suck heavily for doing basic business or engineering calculations, as opposed to Arabic. That did not stop the Romans from doing business and engineering using them, though.

There is nothing whatsoever in Mayan that would prevent its use in accounting or transactional work ... they clearly had the ability to transcribe complicated numbers (they were big in calendrics, for example) and had no problems writing down dynsatic histories.

[alfred russel]

Damn it Malthus, I want to discuss this but I just don't remember enough. 

[The Brain]

These dynsaties, were they destroyed by smallbox?

[lustindarkness]

These dynsaties, were they destroyed by smallbox?

And no, they were destroyed by ancient aliens.

[Ed Anger]

I knew a lady with smallbox.

[Darth Wagtaros]

These dynsaties, were they destroyed by smallbox?

And no, they were destroyed by ancient aliens.

I heard that they were destroyed by ancient alien diseases.