The GOP Convention MegaMittensThread!

[The Minsky Moment]

I still don't quite understand your outrage.  The President made statements diminishing the accomplishments of small business owners ("You didn't build that" was IMO actually worse in the full context of his remarks)

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back.  They know they didn't -- look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own.  You didn't get there on your own.  I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart.  There are a lot of smart people out there.  It must be because I worked harder than everybody else.  Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.  (Applause.)

     If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.  There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.  Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.  Somebody invested in roads and bridges.  If you've got a business -- you didn't build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn't get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

     The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.  There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own.  I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service.  That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

I don't think it "denigrates" small business owners to point out that they benefit from their country's strong institutions and infrastructure.  There is no shortage of entrepreneurial energy in Nigeria yet small businesses struggle.  I will give you a hint: it is not because of high capital gains taxes (only 10% in Nigeria). 

I have come round to teh view that the single biggest danger the US faces domestically is the fundamental lack of popular understanding about the true sources of wealth and economic success on a national level.  Eisenhower understood it, Nixon understood it, Reagan understood, the Bushes did too.  And Romney definitely understands it but like so much in this campaign, hides from it out of some demented political calculation that victory demands abject pandering to the most staggeringly ignorant and atavistic qualities of his base. 

This whole flap is one of the best demonstrations of the mental defects of the TP crowd and the politicians who should know better but facilitate them. 

[garbon]

That just mean it's couples skate.

There's a man in SF who is known for biking up this hilly street near one of the parks, with large speakers blasting Journey.  He just got married in the middle of a street on the day that it was closed for some unrelated reason.

[DGuller]

Since I guess this has taken over as the general election thread, DGuller, have you been watching the Intrade odds for Romney/Obama?

They are about 43-55 in favor of Obama. I tend to think that is too close to even--the polling is typically within the margin of error but with Obama in the lead, but  the last "no toss up" state map I saw had Obama with over 300 electoral votes. It seems Romney is going to win by several points nationally to win the electoral college, and the polling hasn't shown he can get that kind of lead.

I think I'd handicap it closer to 30-70.

It's been consistently about 40-60 on Intrade when I checked it.  I guess the odds tightened a little. 

When in doubt, I go with Nate Silver's odds.  His statistical analysis is very good at sifting through shit to get nuggets of information (unlike poll aggregators like RCP, which are just garbage).  At this moment Silver's odds are indeed 70% for Obama.

[derspiess]

That just mean it's couples skate.

lol   "LADIES CHOICE... LADIES CHOICE"

For some reason, the song that reminds me the most of the roller rink is "Another One Bites the Dust".  That was definitely an ALL SKATE song.

[DGuller]

I don't think it "denigrates" small business owners to point out that they benefit from their country's strong institutions and infrastructure.  There is no shortage of entrepreneurial energy in Nigeria yet small businesses struggle.  I will give you a hint: it is not because of high capital gains taxes (only 10% in Nigeria). 

I have come round to teh view that the single biggest danger the US faces domestically is the fundamental lack of popular understanding about the true sources of wealth and economic success on a national level.  Eisenhower understood it, Nixon understood it, Reagan understood, the Bushes did too.  And Romney definitely understands it but like so much in this campaign, hides from it out of some demented political calculation that victory demands abject pandering to the most staggeringly ignorant and atavistic qualities of his base. 

This whole flap is one of the best demonstrations of the mental defects of the TP crowd and the politicians who should know better but facilitate them.

Agreed.  Every time I hear an idiot trot out the tired "The government that governs least is the government that govern best" dogma, I regret the sorry state of our mental health system that obviously failed such people.

[CountDeMoney]

RYAN: Said Obama misled people in Ryan's hometown of Janesville, Wis., by making them think a General Motors plant there threatened with closure could be saved. "A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: 'I believe that if our government is there to support you ... this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That's what he said in 2008. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year."

THE FACTS: The plant halted production in December 2008, weeks before Obama took office and well before he enacted a more robust auto industry bailout that rescued GM and Chrysler and allowed the majority of their plants — though not the Janesville facility — to stay in operation. Ryan himself voted for an auto bailout under President George W. Bush that was designed to help GM, but he was a vocal critic of the one pushed through by Obama that has been widely credited with revitalizing both GM and Chrysler.

Wrong.  The Janesville plant stayed in operation through most of 2009.  Even CNN grudgingly gives Ryan this one.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/30/politics/pol-fact-check-ryan-gm/index.html

Wrong.  The last vehicle rolled off the line on December 23, 2008.



It was idled and contractors worked for a bit, but when the last vehicle rolls off the line and the 2,000+ UAW employees disperse, that's the end of a factory.  The fact that there was some clean-up in idle time with 57 contractors really doesn't count.

[The Minsky Moment]

Like so many things that seem to come out of Ryan's mouth or pen, the question isn't so much true or false as what is he trying to say. 

In the Janesville example, he quoted Obama making a conditional statement: i.e. the form "If . . . then"  In the specific case, the conditional was government support for the Janesville plant.  That support did not occur, and thus the condition was not satisfied.

So from the standpoint of a purely logical reading, it appears that Ryan is chastising the government for failing to support Janesville in 2008.

[garbon]

Wrong.  The last vehicle rolled off the line on December 23, 2008.



It was idled and contractors worked for a bit, but when the last vehicle rolls off the line and the 2,000+ UAW employees disperse, that's the end of a factory.  The fact that there was some clean-up in idle time with 57 contractors really doesn't count.

That was the last day that SUV were produced which is what D's link said:

http://gazettextra.com/photos/galleries/last-day-gm/3119/

Photos of workers during GM's last day of SUV production.

[The Minsky Moment]

Isuzu is a separate company.  The used to have a JV operation in the US with GM that produced those trucks.  But the decision to close all Isuzu operations in the US was made before Obama's speech. 

[CountDeMoney]

That was the last day that SUV were produced which is what D's link said:

Big difference between the 2,000 plant workers that left after that vehicle was done, and the 57 contractors that stuck around to finish some Isuzu stuff.

But in the end, the decision to put the plant to sleep was before Obama was sworn in.

[garbon]

Considering that we're discussing a President who won a Nobel before he'd done anything, I expect better.

[garbon]

But in the end, the decision to put the plant to sleep was before Obama was sworn in.

You can have that point.

[CountDeMoney]

Considering that we're discussing a President who won a Nobel before he'd done anything, I expect better.

Why?  He's earned it after all.

[derspiess]

I stand by my earlier comment.  Obama was preaching collectivism over individualism, and it's no secret he views the private sector with contempt.

I don't think it "denigrates" small business owners to point out that they benefit from their country's strong institutions and infrastructure.  There is no shortage of entrepreneurial energy in Nigeria yet small businesses struggle.  I will give you a hint: it is not because of high capital gains taxes (only 10% in Nigeria). 

I have come round to teh view that the single biggest danger the US faces domestically is the fundamental lack of popular understanding about the true sources of wealth and economic success on a national level.  Eisenhower understood it, Nixon understood it, Reagan understood, the Bushes did too.  And Romney definitely understands it but like so much in this campaign, hides from it out of some demented political calculation that victory demands abject pandering to the most staggeringly ignorant and atavistic qualities of his base. 

This whole flap is one of the best demonstrations of the mental defects of the TP crowd and the politicians who should know better but facilitate them. 

Nobody is claiming we don't need education, roads, etc.  But by all means continue to call the other side stupid for disagreeing with you.  Why stop now.

[Viking]

Nobody is claiming we don't need education, roads, etc.  But by all means continue

He's just claiming that "you didn't build that"