This one's for Spellus

[Razgovory]

That seems like a loaded question.

[jimmy olsen]

That seems like a Languish question.

[The Minsky Moment]

There's no evidence of these hypothetical pre-Hittite Indo-European Anatolians. 

I-E is a language grouping not a race or nation.  And since all of our evidence about PIE is hypothetical the same could be send for the Anthony's postulated PIE-speaking steppe peoples.
We do know that there were pre-Hittite Anatolians and lots of them.  We know they spoke some language.  And the statistical analysis points in the direction of being the original PIE.

[The Minsky Moment]

Well Sumerians were building cities and were in the neighborhood.

Hundreds of miles across mountains and desert is not in the same neighborhood.  There is also the matter of thousands of years of time passing in the interim.

The Afro-asiatic speakers show up in the mid-east at an early date so you would expect loan words from them as well.   

Early is relative.  In this case, it is about 5000 years later.

Instead you have loan words with the Uralic languages.  That is pretty damn odd if they the PIE guys were all hanging around Anatolia with their hos. 

The thing with wheels is that you don't see the words adopted by all branches of other languages. Such as Sino-Tibetan or Afro-Asiatic.  Why PIE?

Timing, timing.
The Uralic loan words all stem from thousands of years after the postulated Anatolian PIE, at a time when I-E languages had already spread out of the initial homeland.
The Anatolian theory is perfectly compatible with the aspect of the Pontic theory that postulates horse domestication and charioteering arises in that area and the words being adopted by surrounding areas - the difference is that by that time the A-theory postulates I-E languages has already been spreading for thousands of years in those areas.  So it re-use the analogy it would be like the word "tabak(o)" being adopted by lots of already related European languages.  The new words don't spread to certain some other language families because they are more resistant to taking on the loan words intact.

[Queequeg]

We do know that there were pre-Hittite Anatolians and lots of them.  We know they spoke some language.  And the statistical analysis points in the direction of being the original PIE.

The problem is that we know of multiple, unrelated non Indo-European groups that appear to be native to Anatolia and cover most of the region.  The Hatti (who, again, were more Chechen than Indo-European) and the Hurrians (also not Indo-European) were both in the area prior to the Hittites moving in.  Now, it's possible that these languages replaced or co-existed with a non-Hittite Indo-European language, but I'd expect this to be reflected in a layer of toponymy and hydronymy, and a number of agriculture or other language borrowings from this Indo-European language.  I don't see that there.  More than that, I don't think there is evidence of a close relationship with these languages.  They would have co-existed in relatively close proximity for thousands of years, and you would expect to see some evidence of a relationship. 

Now, I think there is substantial evidence of a pre-Indo-European agricultural culture that expanded from Anatolia, but I'm not convinced this group spoke an Indo-European language.  We know a lot about ancient Anatolia, and I'm not sure there is enough room in our picture for this hypothetical pre-Hittite Indo-European people. 

The Uralic loan words all stem from thousands of years after the postulated Anatolian PIE, at a time when I-E languages had already spread out of the initial homeland.

I'm arguing-and Anthony argued-that there are two different periods of a relationship between the Uralic and Indo-European languages.  The first, and most obvious, is what we can both agree on-certain terms relating to domesticated animals and other terms.  The other is evidence that there was an extremely early genetic relationship between the groups, as evidence by the most basic terms in the vocabulary-emä for mother,  *weti for water, mun for I.  It's not enough that the Indo-Uralic is taken seriously as a language group by most experts, but it's there, and it's more than any relationship with the paleo-Anatolians.

[Queequeg]

If this is to be the designated Spellus/Ancient Anatollia thread, I have to ask, what do you think of Göbekli Tepe and how it's revolutionized our understanding of the birth of civilization.

I don't know enough about the Neolithic to make meaningful contributions to this discussion.

However, I was lucky enough to visit Gobekli in April 2010.  It was one of the most memorable moments of my entire time in Turkey, and tbh one of the greatest moments of my life.   It's a fascinating place.  Really astonishing that a non-agricultural group of people were able to construct such a monument. 

However, what I remember most was what I found-and still find-extremely disquieting. Scattered throughout the temple are glyphs of animals-foxes, oxen, various birds, deer, none of which may be found within hundreds of miles of the spot today.  The area around Gobekli Tepe is almost entirely treeless, and resembles some of the more desolate regions of Oaklahoma or the Dakotas. The first known site of permanent human settlement has been transformed from a lush forest in to barren prairie by human action. 

[jimmy olsen]

If this is to be the designated Spellus/Ancient Anatollia thread, I have to ask, what do you think of Göbekli Tepe and how it's revolutionized our understanding of the birth of civilization.

I don't know enough about the Neolithic to make meaningful contributions to this discussion.

However, I was lucky enough to visit Gobekli in April 2010.  It was one of the most memorable moments of my entire time in Turkey, and tbh one of the greatest moments of my life.   It's a fascinating place.  Really astonishing that a non-agricultural group of people were able to construct such a monument. 
 

So jealous!

[Queequeg]

And you didn't even know that I went three with three cute Venetian girls.and a gorgeous Turk. 

[The Brain]

And you didn't even know that I went three with three cute Venetian girls.and a gorgeous Turk. 

[Iormlund]

The first known site of permanent human settlement has been transformed from a lush forest in to barren prairie by human action.

Not just human action. Climate has changed plenty in the last dozen millenia.

[jimmy olsen]

Can't both theories be true?

Indo-European languages slowly spread out from Anatolia 10,000 BP and reach the Pontic Step. There in 6000 BP an Indo-European speaking people domestic the horse and invent the chariot and spread everywhere.

[Queequeg]

The first known site of permanent human settlement has been transformed from a lush forest in to barren prairie by human action.

Not just human action. Climate has changed plenty in the last dozen millenia.

Willfully obtuse.  This area was the heart of civilization for 8,000 years.  No trees.  I doubt that a sunspot did most of the damage. 

[Queequeg]

Can't both theories be true?

Indo-European languages slowly spread out from Anatolia 10,000 BP and reach the Pontic Step. There in 6000 BP an Indo-European speaking people domestic the horse and invent the chariot and spread everywhere.

I was going to suggest something like this, but I'd still like evidence of this in Anatolian toponymy or surrounding languages. 

[Queequeg]

Why the hell are the Northern Indo-Iranians not on the map?  Why are all of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and most of Uzbekistan listed as non-Indo-European forever? 

[PDH]

The first known site of permanent human settlement has been transformed from a lush forest in to barren prairie by human action.

Not just human action. Climate has changed plenty in the last dozen millenia.

Willfully obtuse.  This area was the heart of civilization for 8,000 years.  No trees.  I doubt that a sunspot did most of the damage.

No, not willfully obtuse.  The changes to several areas that were hotbeds of horticulture/early agriculture altered immensely in the period of 14kya to 2kya.  Sure, some of it was human caused, but if you are poo-pooing the gradual changes regionally in the interglacial (it didn't just happen, it happens slowly) then you once again being overly romantic.