The State of Affairs in Russia

[Gaijin de Moscu]

This idea that American foreign thought and policy is centered on some nefarious plot to "get Russia" is kind of bemusing.

Yes please, do leave us alone. Stop funding the colour revolutions around our borders, stop moving your military bases to our borders, stop meddling with our economic projects such as the Nord Streams, and so on.

Just... leave us alone.

Edit: now that I think about it, I may have just summarised the latest Russian demands

[PJL]

I'm sure the Ukrainians would say the same thing with the Russians.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

Many of them. But not all of them.

According to the recent survey by the Kiev International Sociological Institute published in December 2021, 49% of Ukrainians don't want a border or customs control with Russia, while wanting to remain independent:

https://www.google.ch/amp/s/interfax.com.ua/news/general/786607-amp.html

In Russia, 51% don't want a controlled border with Ukraine while wanting both countries to be independent from one another.

And that's after decades of anti-Russian and anti-Ukrainian propaganda, the events in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, blocking the Russian mass media in Ukraine, and so on.

But I'm a Russian troll, right, PJL? Am I a troll when I quote Ukrainian sources, too?

[Josquius]

The two don't go together.
I want open borders and zero customs with France. I don't want France to rule Britain.

[Tamas]

Gaijin I think where the (intentionally or not) dishonest aspect of "just leave Russia alone" comes up for me is that what falls under "not leaving Russia alone" is integrating parts of the former Russian empire into the western military and economic fabric, such as the Baltic States Poland etc. I wouldn't even put Ukraine here, I don't think any sane person would want to rush into anything with that giant mess, which it was long before the foreign Western mercenaries shot into the crowd in Kiev, or whatever the accepted Russian consensus on that one.

If Russians feel like NATO troops in NATO countries like the Baltic States or Poland are infringing on Russia's security, then there are only two possible explanation to that: they either think NATO is actively working toward an invasion of Russia (which I cannot believe anyone but the most lunatic seriously believe), or, as mentioned before, this is experienced as the taking away of what should be under Russia or at least Russian influence.

But since the countries in question do not feel like that the slightest (I know there are Russian minorities but Russians ain't the only ones in that situation, and others manage to live with it), the rest of the world and NATO especially rightly ignore whatever half-defined designs or feelings Russia and Russians have on those countries.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

The two don't go together.
I want open borders and zero customs with France. I don't want France to rule Britain.

That's exactly what the survey says and what I said. Half of the populations in both countries want open borders while remaining independent.

With all the drama about Russia invading Ukraine for the last 8 years, I'd have thought more people would want at least something as basic as a border control?

The survey goes on to state that 52% of population in Eastern Ukraine has a positive attitude towards Russia (26% in the Western Ukraine, 49% in the South). Again, I'd have expected a much lower % to be positive, especially in the East. My understanding is that the separatist areas have been excluded, and the survey was conducted via phone i.e. not anonymously.

In this thread, some major generalisations have been made. The reality on the ground is much more complicated.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

Gaijin I think where the (intentionally or not) dishonest aspect of "just leave Russia alone" comes up for me is that what falls under "not leaving Russia alone" is integrating parts of the former Russian empire into the western military and economic fabric, such as the Baltic States Poland etc. I wouldn't even put Ukraine here, I don't think any sane person would want to rush into anything with that giant mess, which it was long before the foreign Western mercenaries shot into the crowd in Kiev, or whatever the accepted Russian consensus on that one.

If Russians feel like NATO troops in NATO countries like the Baltic States or Poland are infringing on Russia's security, then there are only two possible explanation to that: they either think NATO is actively working toward an invasion of Russia (which I cannot believe anyone but the most lunatic seriously believe), or, as mentioned before, this is experienced as the taking away of what should be under Russia or at least Russian influence.

But since the countries in question do not feel like that the slightest (I know there are Russian minorities but Russians ain't the only ones in that situation, and others manage to live with it), the rest of the world and NATO especially rightly ignore whatever half-defined designs or feelings Russia and Russians have on those countries.

Tamas, this entire hullabaloo with Ukraine began with the unconstitutional event where one oligarch group from Donetsk (the "pro-Russian"Yanukovuch) was replaced, via a violent coup, with another oligarch group linked to Dnipro (the "pro-Western" current government).

There has been a lot of direct Western involvement into that coup, open and well-documented. It has directly disrupted the peaceful coexistence of both countries.

And now yes, we're all pointing our fingers at Russia.

Seriously, all we wanted was to be left alone. Looking at the list of Russian demands, looks like the country has had enough.

I have no idea what will happen now.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

Also, until this disaster in 2013-2014, the opinion surveys showed that 90% of Ukrainians had positive attitude towards Russia. The economic, cultural, and social ties seemed unbreakable. The Ukrainians kept voting for "pro-Russian" presidents who were then removed via colour revolutions in 2004 and in 2014 — because the anti-Russian forces stood no chance whatsoever to come to power via democratic means.

Who financed these colour revolutions? Was it Russia, seriously? Why would it?

[Tamas]

Gaijin I think where the (intentionally or not) dishonest aspect of "just leave Russia alone" comes up for me is that what falls under "not leaving Russia alone" is integrating parts of the former Russian empire into the western military and economic fabric, such as the Baltic States Poland etc. I wouldn't even put Ukraine here, I don't think any sane person would want to rush into anything with that giant mess, which it was long before the foreign Western mercenaries shot into the crowd in Kiev, or whatever the accepted Russian consensus on that one.

If Russians feel like NATO troops in NATO countries like the Baltic States or Poland are infringing on Russia's security, then there are only two possible explanation to that: they either think NATO is actively working toward an invasion of Russia (which I cannot believe anyone but the most lunatic seriously believe), or, as mentioned before, this is experienced as the taking away of what should be under Russia or at least Russian influence.

But since the countries in question do not feel like that the slightest (I know there are Russian minorities but Russians ain't the only ones in that situation, and others manage to live with it), the rest of the world and NATO especially rightly ignore whatever half-defined designs or feelings Russia and Russians have on those countries.

Tamas, this entire hullabaloo with Ukraine began with the unconstitutional event where one oligarch group from Donetsk (the "pro-Russian"Yanukovuch) was replaced, via a violent coup, with another oligarch group linked to Dnipro (the "pro-Western" current government).

There has been a lot of direct Western involvement into that coup, open and well-documented. It has directly disrupted the peaceful coexistence of both countries.

And now yes, we're all pointing our fingers at Russia.

Seriously, all we wanted was to be left alone. Looking at the list of Russian demands, looks like the country has had enough.

I have no idea what will happen now.

I guess this is the point where we'll agree to disagree. Based on my own personal as well as my country's historical experience (be it Russian occupation or the similar kind of regimes built) I am never going to believe the bog-standard "we are stearing up shit in self-defense" narrative which you are unwilling to let go of.

I am utterly baffled by the "country has had enough" point, It's astonishing to think that Russians feel they are being suffocated by the West so much that they need to resort to military action and risk thermonuclear war. If that's indeed the case then clearly there is no hope for Western discourse and diplomacy to cut through internal Russian propaganda and Putin's need for external enemies.

[garbon]

Russia wants to be left alone.

[Tamas]

Russia wants to be left alone.

It is ridiculous but I guess I can see it from the point of view of the individual stuck with Russian media. e.g. if you listen to Hungarian pro-government press (i.e. everything but one TV station and like 3 webpages), the world what you see and hear is where Hungary is under constant and tremendous pressure from the EU to give up its heritage, let millions upon millions of migrants in, and, lately, to allow sex change surgery on little children. People are made to feel, in a very purposeful manner, like they are under siege, only the present government able to protect them.

[Syt]

Russia wants to be left alone.

I think they do. Unfortunately that usually seems to mean being behind a cordon of "friendly" countries and territories who act as buffer and remain firmly in their sphere of influence, whether they like it or not.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

I guess this is the point where we'll agree to disagree. Based on my own personal as well as my country's historical experience (be it Russian occupation or the similar kind of regimes built) I am never going to believe the bog-standard "we are stearing up shit in self-defense" narrative which you are unwilling to let go of.

I am utterly baffled by the "country has had enough" point, It's astonishing to think that Russians feel they are being suffocated by the West so much that they need to resort to military action and risk thermonuclear war. If that's indeed the case then clearly there is no hope for Western discourse and diplomacy to cut through internal Russian propaganda and Putin's need for external enemies.

The Russians perceived the violent coup in Ukraine against the democratically elected, Russia-allied Yanukovich as a Western attack on its ally and on their national interests.

Be as utterly baffled as you want.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

Anyway, it's a pointless conversation.

Our governments are practically at war; I don't see how we'll reconcile our positions.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

Russia wants to be left alone.

I think they do. Unfortunately that usually seems to mean being behind a cordon of "friendly" countries and territories who act as buffer and remain firmly in their sphere of influence, whether they like it or not.

Only with the West, Syt. Our eastern border is mostly unprotected.

I wonder why