It's morning in Wisconsin

[Tonitrus]

And where is MY union anyway, dammit. 

[CountDeMoney]

Unions, like corporations, are fine so long as they do not use their money and influence to corrupt the democratic political process. The Public Sector Unions cannot help but do so since that is their only function.

Oh, man, have you swallowed the FOXNews bullshit hook, line and sinker.   

Gotta call crap.  Back in my home region, I remember growing up, hardly a year would go by without the local Teacher's Union implying a strike at every local ballot measure to raise property taxes for education.

Well, you can consider unions as much a part of your lost childhood as nation-specific toy army men, because they'll be gone soon enough, and you'll get the one-party political system you deserve.

[CountDeMoney]

And where is MY union anyway, dammit. 

Do what Yi said as a solution from the other thread--start looking for another job.  Sucker.

[derspiess]

Unions, like corporations, are fine so long as they do not use their money and influence to corrupt the democratic political process. The Public Sector Unions cannot help but do so since that is their only function.

Oh, man, have you swallowed the FOXNews bullshit hook, line and sinker.   

Gotta call crap.  Back in my home region, I remember growing up, hardly a year would go by without the local Teacher's Union implying a strike at every local ballot measure to raise property taxes for education.

Well, you can consider unions as much a part of your lost childhood as nation-specific toy army men, because they'll be gone soon enough, and you'll get the one-party political system you deserve.

If public sector unions are the only thing propping up the Democrat Party (it's not, but I'll play), then the sooner that party dies and is replaced with a more relevant party, the better.

[Berkut]

Unions, like corporations, are fine so long as they do not use their money and influence to corrupt the democratic political process. The Public Sector Unions cannot help but do so since that is their only function.

Oh, man, have you swallowed the FOXNews bullshit hook, line and sinker.   

Gotta call crap.  Back in my home region, I remember growing up, hardly a year would go by without the local Teacher's Union implying a strike at every local ballot measure to raise property taxes for education.

Well, you can consider unions as much a part of your lost childhood as nation-specific toy army men, because they'll be gone soon enough, and you'll get the one-party political system you deserve.

Wow, the purpose of unions is to prop up the second of our two party political system?

And there I was thinking it was to ensure fair working conditions for workers. Thanks for setting me straight Seedy!

[Phillip V]

[Habbaku]

   

[Monoriu]

My fundamental problem with public sector unions is this.  In the private sector, the unions negotiate with corproate management.  Management has an incentive to lower costs and raise profits.  Therefore, the negotiation is an arms length one.

In the public sector, the politicians in charge often collude with the unions.  They have an incentive to give in to union demands in exchange for support in elections.  Taxpayers become losers as no one in the negotiation process takes care of their interests.  The "negotiation" is a farce. 

[DGuller]

I'll say the same thing I said when the shit originally hit the fan.  Public employee unions are bad, but crony capitalism is worse.  If the cost of crushing the first is to further empower the second, it's a bad trade.  It's like supporting Nazis to combat communism.

[CountDeMoney]

Wow, the purpose of unions is to prop up the second of our two party political system?

And there I was thinking it was to ensure fair working conditions for workers. Thanks for setting me straight Seedy!

As usual, you're speedbagging the wrong target, Sluggo.

[Berkut]

I'll say the same thing I said when the shit originally hit the fan.  Public employee unions are bad, but crony capitalism is worse.  If the cost of crushing the first is to further empower the second, it's a bad trade.  It's like supporting Nazis to combat communism.

Well, in this case there isn't anyone else to combat the communists. It's not like the Dems are going to take on the unions, right?

I am glad Walker stomped on the public service unions. His being supported by the "we all should get as much democracy as we can buy" crowd is pretty distasteful, but that doesn't change the fact that I think what he has done on this issue is a good thing. I don't accept that even if "crony capitalism" is worse, it is somehow connected to public service unions. I can and am happy to be against both of them (at least I think I am - I suspect "crony capitalism" doesn't really mean anything though).

[DGuller]

I'll say the same thing I said when the shit originally hit the fan.  Public employee unions are bad, but crony capitalism is worse.  If the cost of crushing the first is to further empower the second, it's a bad trade.  It's like supporting Nazis to combat communism.

Well, in this case there isn't anyone else to combat the communists. It's not like the Dems are going to take on the unions, right?

I am glad Walker stomped on the public service unions. His being supported by the "we all should get as much democracy as we can buy" crowd is pretty distasteful, but that doesn't change the fact that I think what he has done on this issue is a good thing. I don't accept that even if "crony capitalism" is worse, it is somehow connected to public service unions. I can and am happy to be against both of them (at least I think I am - I suspect "crony capitalism" doesn't really mean anything though).

It is connected because the two are moneyed interests at odds with each other.  If you destroy one, the other one gets more power.  You seem to think, almost to the point of assumption, that unions are the worst evil, and should be defeated regardless of who you have to ally with.

[Admiral Yi]

It is connected because the two are moneyed interests at odds with each other.  If you destroy one, the other one gets more power.  You seem to think, almost to the point of assumption, that unions are the worst evil, and should be defeated regardless of who you have to ally with.

So right to work states are all run on the basis of crony capitalism? 

Seedy: you're right.  84 is how much teachers make in NY.  Wisconsin is 73K/year.

[DGuller]

So right to work states are all run on the basis of crony capitalism? 

There is a noticeable correlation.  Then again, the color of the state has so many correlations to various quality of life measures, that it becomes statistically very difficult to figure out what really leads to what.

[Admiral Yi]

There is a noticeable correlation.  Then again, the color of the state has so many correlations to various quality of life measures, that it becomes statistically very difficult to figure out what really leads to what.

What are the observed outcomes?  How does crony capitalism manifest itself?  Governors hand over large portions of state revenue to rich donors?