Hawaii verifies Obama birth records to Arizona

[Berkut]

Look, someone ritually casting out from their party those who are not radical enough for their tastes. Hmmm....what does that sound like???

Someone's moderation is failing here.  There is a middle ground to be struck when it comes to party discipline.  One extreme is a party where no dissent is tolerated.  Another extreme is a party that has no ideas uniting it, in which case it's not really a party at all.  Obviously the optimal point is somewhere in the middle. 

Also, in Lieberman's case, he wasn't done in on just on dissent, but also on how he expressed his dissent.  Publically lecturing your fellow party members is not going to go down well, regardless of whether it's a Ba'ath Party or the Democratic Party.

That isn't the point.

Meh, of course you are going to argue that your crazies are not nearly as influential as the purple drazi's crazies - especially since you were/are the Dem equivalent of a Tea Bagger - recall how much you raged against Blue Dog Democrats, how they were not "real" Dems, and the Dems would be better off without them, etc., etc. Pretty much Nordquist without the power.

I may also argue that because they're mostly a figment of your rather rich imagination.  As for me being a Teabagger, that's just an obvious ad hominem troll, so I'm not even going to bother wasting time on it. 

I didn't say you were a Teabagger - I said you were the Dem equivalent. Someone on the radical side of their party who demands that the party represent their position only and is willing to cast out those who do not march to their extreme drum.

I love how you do exactly that in this very post.

I am, however, a staunch anti-Repulican, because Republicans as they are currently are utterly repugnant to me.

Nothing wrong with that - they are repugnant to me as well. As I've stated. And as you so conveniently edited out of your response. Funny that. The famed DG debate honesty again?

  Being staunchly against one party doesn't make me an unwavering adhrent of the other party.

No, being a radical memeber of the fringe makes you a fringe member though, just like the TeaBaggers.

As for Blue Dogs, my argument repeatedly went over your head, but I'll repeat again:  Blue Dogs gave Democrats the appearance of supermajority without an actual supermajority, which is the worst of both worlds.  Democrats still couldn't do what they in general are elected to do, but there was an appearance that they could. You can't just take a couple of Republicans, slap a D on them,

LOL. A perfect example - they are "Republicans" and hence repugnant to you, and probably racists I am sure, since most Republicans are, because they are not radical Dems, but moderates.

I could not have created a better example of you doing exactly what I am talking about if I had written your post myself.

They are not Republicans - they are Democrats. They are just moderate Democrats, but still Democrats just the same. Just because they are not ideologically left wing enough for you, doesn't make them Republicans.

and expect any meaingful change.  As stated previously, party has to mean something, a party that has everyone as its member is a party that has no one as its member.

And all parties have a range of views, at least in any two party system as we have. And in fact, most of the time most of the members will actually be moderates, not MoveOn fringies or TeaBaggers. That is the nature of a two party system. You cannot appeal to most people if your party is dominated by the crazies like yourself and Nordquist.

Tea Baggers are the luny fringe of the Republicans. They are slightly different than the loony fringe that was around when Clinton was President, because the circumstances are different, but it is all one and the same from a systemic point of view.

The pretext is different, but not much else.

But the idea that there is any fundamental difference between your crazies and their crazies is a figment of your allegiances.

From where I'm sitting, it's a figment of your straw-producing imagination and your persistent fallacy of middle ground.  You so depserately need to equivocate every single phenomenon, and wish pox on both houses equally and in a balanced way, that you often just don't think things through at all. 

Funny you should say this since in the very post you are responding to I state unequivocally that I do not think they are equal, do not have any stated "pox on both their houses" and in fact state that I won't vote for a Republican as long as they allow themselves to be dominate by the lunatic fringe. Where did that part of my post go?

Oh, you edited out so you could pretend I didn't actually say it. How handy.

As I said previously, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to take a middle position.  Computers can do that.  Figuring out when the truth is not the middle, at the risk of adopting an extreme position that would be historically discredited, is where it takes some thinking.

Indeed - which is why I am willing to take position that are not in the middle at all, and do so all the time.

What takes no thinking is to just slavishly follow your tribe though, and even go to the extreme of demanding that anyone in your tribe not as radical as you be cast out.

[Berkut]

And I would argue that the Moveon crowd in fact had their effect as well.

I remember when the Dem candidates were all trying to one up each other on how quickly they would bail out of Iraq, no matter what the circumstances, if elected. Even ones who stated earlier something very different, like Clinton.

It became anathema to have any position on Iraq other than "We will bail immediate and as quickly as absolutely possible" during the Dem primary season.

Of course, sanity returned once Obama was actually elected, and he went ahead and implemented the very plan the MoveOn crown was screaming bloody murder about.

The Tea Baggers are all crazy, and it is too bad the Republicans seem to have let them take control. And if they stay in control, then I hope they lose big come election time, because the people they elect suck as politicians and leaders. I would MUCH rather have any moderate Dem than any TeaBagger. I stated months ago that I could not support the Republican Party even as tepidly as I had as long as they were dominated by the crazies.

But the difference between your average TeaBagger and your average Dem equivalent is not in kind, but simply in power and circumstance.

[Razgovory]

Why is the Tea Party considered the "Fringe" of the Republican party?  http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/15/new-cnn-poll-gop-divided-over-tea-party-movement/  This indicates that pretty damn close to half of Republicans and Republican trending independents supported it.  Large fringe then.  Possibly larger then those who are against it.

[Razgovory]

Wait, was withdraw from Iraq some kind of fringe position that only this nebulous "moveon crowd" endorsed?  Who exactly is this "moveon crowd" anyway?  In fact, I believe the majority of not only Democrats but Americans were for Iraq withdraw in 2008.

[DGuller]

Berkut, we can keep going round and round like this, but I don't see what there is to gain.  You have too much invested in portraying me as a fringe Democrat, and yourself as a rational political commentator free of any biases, to make an attempt to argue in good faith here.

[Berkut]

Berkut, we can keep going round and round like this, but I don't see what there is to gain.  You have too much invested in portraying me as a fringe Democrat, and yourself as a rational political commentator free of any biases, to make an attempt to argue in good faith here.

You are on record as stating that moderate Democrats are not Democrats at all.

You don't need any help from me to define you as in the fringe.

And I've never claimed I am "free of any bias".

Your right that it won't ever go anywhere - but that is the nature of extremism. Extremists never think they are such, they think they are perfectly reasonable.

But I am perfectly happy to continue to point out when you start spouting the crazy, like the transparently deplorable race baiting in this thread. I don't care much about the argument of whether or not your are reasonable in your ridiculous characterization of the green drazi, but that doesn't mean I will just let your tortured logic pass when you do *exactly* what you deplore others of doing.

[Razgovory]

I think I see the problem here.  Berkut has a different definition of "fringe" then the rest of us.  Apparently something that is "fringe" is simply something Berkut disagrees with.  So anti-war sentiment and the Tea Party are Fringe not based how widely they are accepted but if Berkut agrees with them or not.

[DGuller]

Your right that it won't ever go anywhere - but that is the nature of extremism. Extremists never think they are such, they think they are perfectly reasonable.

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe you yourself are not the most reasonable one here?  Sometimes the easiest faults to notice in others are exactly the faults one fails to recognize in himself.

[DGuller]

That actually reminds me of a family story.  The husband of my grandmother's sister, during a family gathering, was going on and on about another member of the family who wasn't present, and who has mental illness.  "She's crazy.  Nuts.  Coo-coo.  Crazy, crazy, crazy."  Nobody had the guts to point out that the guy himself had schizophrenia, either out of politeness, or out of awareness that the guy had a tendency to flip out, and often carried a gun illegally.

[Berkut]

Your right that it won't ever go anywhere - but that is the nature of extremism. Extremists never think they are such, they think they are perfectly reasonable.

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe you yourself are not the most reasonable one here?  Sometimes the easiest faults to notice in others are exactly the faults one fails to recognize in himself.

The difference is that my claim that you are an extremist is backed up by reason and evidence - I've noted your actions and exeplained why they are extreme (such as your insistence that moderates Democrats are not Democrats at all - a classic characteristic of extremists).

I am sure there are things I am not as reasonable about as I should be - your being just as much a political extremist as a tea bagger isn't one of them though. The accusation in fact, is simply made as an attempt to distract from what I good job I've done of proving your own irrationality.

[Berkut]

That actually reminds me of a family story.  The husband of my grandmother's sister, during a family gathering, was going on and on about another member of the family who wasn't present, and who has mental illness.  "She's crazy.  Nuts.  Coo-coo.  Crazy, crazy, crazy."  Nobody had the guts to point out that the guy himself had schizophrenia, either out of politeness, or out of awareness that the guy had a tendency to flip out, and often carried a gun illegally.

That is a very interesting story.

But I don't carry a gun.

[grumbler]

That actually reminds me of a family story.  The husband of my grandmother's sister, during a family gathering, was going on and on about another member of the family who wasn't present, and who has mental illness.  "She's crazy.  Nuts.  Coo-coo.  Crazy, crazy, crazy."  Nobody had the guts to point out that the guy himself had schizophrenia, either out of politeness, or out of awareness that the guy had a tendency to flip out, and often carried a gun illegally.

That actually reminds me of a family story.  The husband of my grandmother's sister, during a family gathering, was going on and on about how things reminded him of old family stories, even though they didn't.  "That actually reminds me of a family story," he would start each time.  Nobody had the guts to point out that we were all in the same family and would have heard of these stories before, if he wasn't just making them up; either out of politeness, or out of awareness that the guy had a tendency to flip out, and often started telling even more "family stories" when he got caught making shit up.

[Jaron]

That actually reminds me of a family story.  The husband of my grandmother's sister, during a family gathering, was going on and on about another member of the family who wasn't present, and who has mental illness.  "She's crazy.  Nuts.  Coo-coo.  Crazy, crazy, crazy."  Nobody had the guts to point out that the guy himself had schizophrenia, either out of politeness, or out of awareness that the guy had a tendency to flip out, and often carried a gun illegally.

That actually reminds me of a family story.  The husband of my grandmother's sister, during a family gathering, was going on and on about how things reminded him of old family stories, even though they didn't.  "That actually reminds me of a family story," he would start each time.  Nobody had the guts to point out that we were all in the same family and would have heard of these stories before, if he wasn't just making them up; either out of politeness, or out of awareness that the guy had a tendency to flip out, and often started telling even more "family stories" when he got caught making shit up.

I read that family story of yours before somewhere...where was it? Genesis? Or was it in Exodus?

[Razgovory]

I wish Berkut would stop confusing is opinion with objective fact.  That's often the sign of an extremist.

The accusation in fact, is simply made as an attempt to distract from what I good job I've done of proving your own irrationality.

Is fucking hilarious.

[Jaron]

It is mystifying though why people who claim there is no point in arguing with Berkut and he never changes his opinion insist on spending countless posts debating him.