UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[The Minsky Moment]

The problem is partly that "sovereignty" in this case is a sham, lacking any of the usual indicia of "sovereignty" in the national sense, and partly that it is not in fact serving the best interests of those who are subject to it - for systemic reasons.

Sovereignty often fails to serve the best interests who are subject to it - in fact that historically and even presently is more typically the case then not, and for systemic reasons as well.

As for the "sham" argument - I am less familiar with the Canadian set up but in the US, Tribal sovereignty, although limited in certain respects, is quite real and not a sham.  The tribal jurisdictions may not have many classical incidents of sovereignty, like an independent foreign policy or currency, but they do have extensive powers of self-government and broad immunities against the implementation of laws of competing jurisdictions.  It doesn't seem clear to me that tribal sovereignty is any more a sham that the sovereignty of Monaco, Andorra, or the Channel Islands.

I take it you have not read what I actually proposed above, then? My proposal would be to provide the "beneficiaries" of this system with the choice that they are presently lacking, not to remove it wholus-bolus.

Is that the proposal to offer to pay people a big lump sum to give up their claims to sovereignty?
I agree that gives a choice, but what happens if some refuse the offer?  Then the problem as you see it still remains, only the state is out a bunch of cash for their trouble.

[Jacob]

Indeed I did mean something else. My "solution" was never to make natives to discard their culture. 

Now that you have been disabused of that, perhaps we can move forward.

Well, you've been pretty obtuse in stating that so far

[Barrister]

If conditions continue to deteriorate individuals will continue to leave those communities in ever increasing numbers (they're already doing so at a pretty good clip anyways).

Jesus Christ Beebs, you are basically saying that we are terrible human beings for saying that further assimilation should be encouraged via enticemetns and/or simply removing dis-incentives to do so, yet your solution is to cause further assmiliation through making living conditions so miserable they are forced to leave?

And lets be clear here - this misery is the kind of misery that causes Native Americans to kill themselves at a rate roughly double the national average. So we are talking about people dieing, and many, many more people living in what amounts to third world conditions inside one of the richest countries in the world.

And WE are the bad guys here? :boggle:

They may be living in poverty or dying ... but at least no-one is guilty of "colonialist thought".

Gotta keep matters in perspective and focus on the truly important, Berk! 

I'm more than a little offended at the notion I don't care about conditions in first nations communities.  I mean - I've only spent years and years fighting and prosecuting in northern Canada to ry and make first nations communities better places.

But last year I upped and moved.  I now prosecute in a large city.  Not one single reserve within city limits.

But guess what - first nations people are still grossly over-represented in my courtroom.

But no, they aren't just visiting.  They live here.  Many have grown up here.  Whatever their problems, it wasn't directly caused by their Indian Status.

And you know what?  Some first nations communities are doing pretty darn good.  I've talked about some of the Yukon communities I prosecuted in.  They were rough.  They gave me some of the roughest towns to deal with.  But those aren't all the towns.  Once (and just once) I went and prosecuted in Teslin.  It's a T'lingit community.  Houses are well-kept.  Crime was low.  It's a town I enjoyed visiting, and would purposely stop in.

I said I have some sympathy for the "close the reserves" sentiment, but I'm not convinced that the "reserves" are what are causing these problems.  Problems of domestic violence, suicide, substance abuse - they exist on and off reserve.

So what I suggest is pretty simple.  Certainly not to ignore the situation - but to go to native communities as a sibling, not a parent.  To say "I see you're hurting - what can I do to help", and not to say "I know what's best for you".

[Barrister]

Malthus, re: your plan to end any special Indian status in exchange for a one-time cash payment:

You know in university I thought something like that was the way to go.

But I don't think you'd get universal acceptance.  Native culture is (yes still!) funny when it comes to money.

Have you heard of a reserve called Hobbema?  It's a reserve (actually several reserves) in Alberta that sit on some very rich oil wealth.  Until fairly recently they dispersed that oil wealth by giving each citizen a very large cheque (approx $100k) when they turned 18.  Sounds great, right?  Maybe they'll turn into dickhead trustafarians, but they should be able to set themselves up in life.

Unfortunately what typically would happen is the 18 year old would buy themselves a brand new pickup, but then send the rest on parties and gifts for family and friends, and typically the money is gone in a couple of years.

The sense of community, of sharing, which to me seems like a bad idea when taken to that level, is central to native culture.

Which is a long way of saying - I don't think you'd get an overwhelming number of natives to accept your bargain.  And then what?  Maybe you reduce by half the number of status indians, but you still have all the same number of disfunctional communities, just with half the population (and a sudden influx of the other half to the cities).

[CountDeMoney]

It's the Audacity of Beebs.

[garbon]

So, are we any closer to figuring out the "Indian Question"?

Can someone recap the ideas here. A poll would due.

I did that recently. We won't do anything as it'd be paternalistic.

[garbon]

I'm more than a little offended at the notion I don't care about conditions in first nations communities.  I mean - I've only spent years and years fighting and prosecuting in northern Canada to ry and make first nations communities better places.

I guess one could say a community is better when you've locked them all up.

[Barrister]

I'm more than a little offended at the notion I don't care about conditions in first nations communities.  I mean - I've only spent years and years fighting and prosecuting in northern Canada to ry and make first nations communities better places.

I guess one could say a community is better when you've locked them all up.

A community is indeed better when you've locked up the worst offenders.

I remember a time when the local RCMP commented - it's been really quiet in town.  It must be because X, Y and Z are in jail.

It really is a small minority of individuals who cause the majority of problems - in any community.

[Barrister]

And incarceration is only one tool.

I've sat in on a sentencing circle.  I've done restorative justice meetings.  I've put many, many people on community supervision.  I've sent many people to residential treatment facilities.

[garbon]

Oh you were deciding what was best for them?

[garbon]

I'm more than a little offended at the notion I don't care about conditions in first nations communities.  I mean - I've only spent years and years fighting and prosecuting in northern Canada to ry and make first nations communities better places.

I guess one could say a community is better when you've locked them all up.

A community is indeed better when you've locked up the worst offenders.

I remember a time when the local RCMP commented - it's been really quiet in town.  It must be because X, Y and Z are in jail.

It really is a small minority of individuals who cause the majority of problems - in any community.

America is a better place because we lock up all our black people.

[katmai]

America is a better place because we lock up all our black people.

Yet you are free

[Barrister]

Oh you were deciding what was best for them?

Not really.

I mentioned doing court in Teslin.  It was a fascinating experience.  The judge presides, of course.  But the local clan elders sit in on court, and feel quite, quite free to share their opinion with the judge on what the judge should do in the end.

Even in other communities - I've had plenty of meetings with Chiefs, native court workers, and of course lots and lots of victims to get their input.  The most usual response of course was "we want X to get help" - which was also my goal.

And don't get me wrong - most communities know who the real problem-makers are, and while they might be reluctant or scared to come forward to give evidence, they had no objection to that person going to jail.

[garbon]

America is a better place because we lock up all our black people.

Yet you are free

Desi, baby.

[The Brain]

Why are people arguing with Oex?