Haven't had a debt thread in a while

[Martinus]

One problem that I fear must be addressed is the high ratio of useless degrees being offered. A lot of people take loans, shell out thousands of dollars to earn a degree that doesn't teach them how to DO anything. They graduate, go to job interviews and are asked what they can DO and they've got NOTHING.

I spent a year in school studying secondary education, for example - I learned a lot of theories but very little practical application. I studied history in my undergrad years and that certainly hasn't helped me find work except for the fact it tells people I have a degree. I could tell you oodles about French and English history or the Roman Empire, but that hasn't really helped me. I rely more on my work history than my so called higher education.

Compare that to the experience of some of my friends in the sciences who were learning lab work and how to actually do things. They graduate and jump into high paying jobs that help justify their expenses for school.

We need to discourage people from studying anthropology, history, sociology, philosophy and the rest of that Socratic crap. They can take night enrichment classes at the community college if that interests them. We should be firmer in just saying "If this is what you want to study, you don't need to attend a university."

We should encourage those seeking higher education into sciences and skill oriented degrees like sciences and technology.

I think the problem is with education in general, and specifically that it is not adapting to changing times - it is not possible today to know everything there is to know (as it was, say, in the 19th century) but education is still kinda geared towards that thinking.

Likewise, with most jobs, you are highly unlikely to do the same job (less alone for the same employer) for your entire life.

So throughout high school people get that kind of general education that has very little to do with actual jobs they are going to do (unless someone wants to be a scientist I guess) and it does not really offer them any taste of what they are good at, in terms of their eventual job. So people go into college, not thinking in terms of what they want to do in future, but what kind of stuff they liked to learn about during their high school years - and you end up with people in degrees like history or literature (which is fine, as long as you want to do it, but most people won't end up doing it). For example, my main motivation when going into law was that I liked history and there was a lot of connection - but I had very vague idea about what lawyers actually do (except from films and the like, which is rarely true).

Instead, at least 1 or 2 last years of high school should be devoted not to teaching people the same stuff, but giving them samples of various professions out there (I am not talking a vocational school, but rather classes which show them what kind of stuff you do when you do certain jobs). So that people going into college may make more informed choices, and not end up with a useless, costly degree.

[Tamas]

Stop telling young people they need to go to college to succeed. In most cases, it's a waste of fucking time and resources. But since colleges are now in the business of selling degrees, it is a vicious circle.

This.

[MadImmortalMan]

Crazy idea:

Students are no longer allowed to pay for higher education, and in order to hire anyone, employers--private, gub'mint, charitable, whatever--must pay for their new employee's training; crucially, schools only get paid when they produce hireable graduates.  Schools can still let in anybody, I guess.  That's their own business.  But they receive funding only equal to their outcomes.

And this therefore requires schools to actually vet and educate their matriculants, and leaves students with either a guaranteed job or only out opportunity cost.

It would also destroy all but the essential college degrees, as I expect businesses would suddenly realize that, hey, you don't need a B.A. to answer a fucking telephone.

I'm sure you'll all object that this is retarded, but the public at large--which includes employers--is already paying for massive degree overproduction and the unbridled greed of the educational system.  They may think they aren't, because these costs are externalities, but between higher salaries for professionals who made it (and need huge incomes to service their loans) and paying the taxes that permit the government to guarantee loans, the only sector to which all these problems are truly external is the source of the problem, the schools themselves.

A less convoluted alternative is straight-up free (compulsory?) post-secondary education; since we've evidently decided as a society that this is beneficial--and perhaps it is, I attribute a great deal of the reduction in violent crime to the pacifying of young men in their formative years with the college experience as funded by student loans--why not simply make it High School-Plus?  Then everyone shares in the potential problems, and the fedgov has the power to exercise centralized control.

+1?

I mean, there isn't a lot more to say after that.

[Admiral Yi]

Crazy idea:

Students are no longer allowed to pay for higher education, and in order to hire anyone, employers--private, gub'mint, charitable, whatever--must pay for their new employee's training

Crazy idea.  An MD goes to work for a hospital.  Hospital pays for 8 years of school.  MD leaves after a year to set up private practice.  End result: no recently graduated MD ever gets hired.

[Josquius]

I cleared my private loan a few months ago :rock:
It wasn't anywhere near $100,000 though....jesus....

Crazy idea.  An MD goes to work for a hospital.  Hospital pays for 8 years of school.  MD leaves after a year to set up private practice.  End result: no recently graduated MD ever gets hired.

Surely such an idea would have stuff in the contract about the guy then having to pay for much of his education if he breaks the deal.

[CountDeMoney]

Surely such an idea would have stuff in the contract about the guy then having to pay for much of his education if he breaks the deal.

We did at the police department.  In fact, most do.

[PDH]

Wyoming pays about 3/4 of the cost of the University of Wyoming to instate students.  All a kid needs to do is gradumicate from a Wyoming High School with decent grades.

Socialism, for the win.  (they didn't have this back in the day, this is a recent - last decade - program)

[Tamas]

Wyoming pays about 3/4 of the cost of the University of Wyoming to instate students.  All a kid needs to do is gradumicate from a Wyoming High School with decent grades.

Socialism, for the win.  (they didn't have this back in the day, this is a recent - last decade - program)

It has a few decades worth of run in it then.

[Valmy]

Stop telling young people they need to go to college to succeed. In most cases, it's a waste of fucking time and resources. But since colleges are now in the business of selling degrees, it is a vicious circle.

Yeah I scandalized the older generation when I told my cousin's kid to not go to College.  I mean he didn't want to go to college he wanted to be a mechanic, but for some reason everybody was pressuring the poor kid to go waste his time for four years.

[PDH]

Wyoming pays about 3/4 of the cost of the University of Wyoming to instate students.  All a kid needs to do is gradumicate from a Wyoming High School with decent grades.

Socialism, for the win.  (they didn't have this back in the day, this is a recent - last decade - program)

It has a few decades worth of run in it then.

It is actually a big trust fund that was paid in full from mineral royalties.

[Ideologue]

Crazy idea:

Students are no longer allowed to pay for higher education, and in order to hire anyone, employers--private, gub'mint, charitable, whatever--must pay for their new employee's training

Crazy idea.  An MD goes to work for a hospital.  Hospital pays for 8 years of school.  MD leaves after a year to set up private practice.  End result: no recently graduated MD ever gets hired.

Responsibility for payment is assigned to his employer, the partnership or sole proprietorship he has created; when or if he fails or tires of running his own business, he crawls back to the hospital scene and responsibility for payment is reassigned back.  (Or, if the hospital has paid in lump sum, he owes the hospital.  But what hospital will pay in a lump sum when they realize there is a flight risk of talent?)

I'm not sure this is an objection with meat on its bones.

Btw, I've heard it's M.D.s fault that student loans are nondischargeable now, as they'd come out of med school, BK immediately, then build a practice and get rich without a hundred thousand or so in debt.  Not sure if that's true or just lawyers complaining.

[Sheilbh]

Crazy idea:

Students are no longer allowed to pay for higher education, and in order to hire anyone, employers--private, gub'mint, charitable, whatever--must pay for their new employee's training

Crazy idea.  An MD goes to work for a hospital.  Hospital pays for 8 years of school.  MD leaves after a year to set up private practice.  End result: no recently graduated MD ever gets hired.

Then the MD has to pay the costs instead.

The Armed Forces and the NHS pay for a lot of students over here.  Also all dentists have to do a number of years as NHS dentists before going into private practice.  It's the norm for law firms to pay the costs of law school.  I don't see why this is entirely implausible in vocational subjects.

I support free higher education.

[Tamas]

Stop telling young people they need to go to college to succeed. In most cases, it's a waste of fucking time and resources. But since colleges are now in the business of selling degrees, it is a vicious circle.

Yeah I scandalized the older generation when I told my cousin's kid to not go to College.  I mean he didn't want to go to college he wanted to be a mechanic, but for some reason everybody was pressuring the poor kid to go waste his time for four years.

Yeah this is so annoying here as well. A craftmanship can end up being lucrative, is almost always needed to a degree, unlike the filler college degrees, and can give a decent living, with an honest work.

We had that topic recently about liberalism devaluing societal stuff and whatnot. That was bollocks. The real devaluation problem we have been facing is the devaluation of non-fabolous jobs.

[Fate]

Crazy idea:

Students are no longer allowed to pay for higher education, and in order to hire anyone, employers--private, gub'mint, charitable, whatever--must pay for their new employee's training

Crazy idea.  An MD goes to work for a hospital.  Hospital pays for 8 years of school.  MD leaves after a year to set up private practice.  End result: no recently graduated MD ever gets hired.

Medicare is the one who is paying all resident salaries to the tune of 40-60 grand a year for up to 7-9 years. Medical school (4 years) is from loan money.

[grumbler]

I could also say something about the average salaries of university administrators...

Those are an effect of the tuition that universities can charge, not a cause, IMO.

Bottom line is that, when the government gets involved in the economy, the results are guaranteed to be hilarious.  In this case, the joke tuition rates are not a price that has actually bought us anything.  Only the gubmint can afford to pay something for nothing.