PTSD in Pre-Modern/Perpetual Conflict Societies

[Eddie Teach]

I watched it. All I can say now is that it's pretty forgettable.

[Ideologue]

But it won an Oscar!  That's a seal of quality.

[Razgovory]

Also would be interesting to compare PTSD between WW2 vets and WW1-Vietnam vets.  If somehow the "good" nature of the war changed perceptions on it.

I think that contrary to popular belief, WWII veterans who returned home with psychological problems actually had it worse than Vietnams vets who did so.  Yeah, the WWII guys got hailed as heros when they first came home while the Vietnam vets got spat on and called baby-killers, but OTOH, we kind of expected Vietnam vets to be messed up mentally and did provided some (admitted often inadequate) counseling and the like for them.  The WWII vets were supposed to be heros though, and we didn't think of heros as having any psychological problems that they might have needed help with.

I think the spat on thing is something of a myth, but I think the "Crazy Vietnam vet" concept came more from a sort of cultural guilt.  There were few battles as intense as what was seen in WWII.  My relatives in WWII just didn't talk about it (one would shut himself in every fourth of July because he developed an aversion of fireworks).  I think "Just not talking about it", was pretty common.

[KRonn]

It seems that most of you are talking about the explosions, noise, and physicality of war affecting a soldier and those things causing mental stress, PTSD, etc. I've also wondered how ancient, medieval type soldiers dealt with war/battles. They were using hand weapons mostly, close up and personal, seeing the other guy face to face, seeing the light go out of his eyes as they killed him. Remembering those faces long after the fighting is over, and years later. That all will often have an affect on a soldier remembering it, and I have to think such memories, dreaming of them, can have a big affect.  And of course, that has the same affect on WW2 and contemporary soldiers.

[jimmy olsen]

It seems that most of you are talking about the explosions, noise, and physicality of war affecting a soldier and those things causing mental stress, PTSD, etc. I've also wondered how ancient, medieval type soldiers dealt with war/battles. They were using hand weapons mostly, close up and personal, seeing the other guy face to face, seeing the light go out of his eyes as they killed him. Remembering those faces long after the fighting is over, and years later. That all will often have an affect on a soldier remembering it, and I have to think such memories, dreaming of them, can have a big affect.  And of course, that has the same affect on WW2 and contemporary soldiers.

Yeah, but these people lived in an alien moral and societal framework to what we have today. We live in a society built on a mix of two universalist moral frameworks, the Enlightenment  and Christianity. In Classical antiquity there is no moral, religious or philosophical value placed
on things like the universal brotherhood of man, mercy, forgiveness, tolerance, etc. It's a selfish society where extreme othering of individuals outside one's own locale and class was the norm and seen as a positive good. Killing people probably did less psychological damage to people with that kind of world view.

[PDH]

Dammit, I hate it when you actually make a bit of sense.

[jimmy olsen]

Oh!

I've let the masquerade slip!

[Razgovory]

Oh!

I've let the masquerade slip!

I have a feeling someone is going to jump on your ass over that, but I mostly agree with what you said.

[KRonn]

I don't know though Tim. The soldiers of ancient times still had humanity, families, could probably relate to their enemies as being somewhat similar to them and so would have some empathy. On the other hand, when we read of towns and cities being razed for resisting, everyone being killed, as for example Romans did at times during their civil wars, it does make me wonder how they could be so cold bloodedly brutal. So I'm sure your points stand as well, to some extent anyway, and maybe even the dominant views given how easily brutal the ancients could be.

[Siege]

I don't know though Tim. The soldiers of ancient times still had humanity, families, could probably relate to their enemies as being somewhat similar to them and so would have some empathy. On the other hand, when we read of towns and cities being razed for resisting, everyone being killed, as for example Romans did at times during their civil wars, it does make me wonder how they could be so cold bloodedly brutal. So I'm sure your points stand as well, to some extent anyway, and maybe even the dominant views given how easily brutal the ancients could be.

Tim got it right.
The diference is in your personal perception of warfare and the enemy you are fighting.
For example, I'm pretty sure you have heard me complaining about my PTSD caused by the effect of losing my fellow soldiers in combat, but you have never heard complaining about PTSD caused by my actions in combat.
To put it bluntly, is not the people you kill, but the people you lose.

Now, not everybody is like this. Plenty of guys on my left and right have been affected by their actions in combat, but still the hardcore, ideologically motivated soldier, that somehow always gravitates towards me and befriends me, are not affected by the enemy they kill, because we don't identify with the enemy, they are NOT one of us. If we, in this time and place, can be like this, I would assume EVERYBODY back in ancient times were the same way, since the ideas of "universal brotherhood" are a fairly recent invention.

[Faeelin]

I don't know though Tim. The soldiers of ancient times still had humanity, families, could probably relate to their enemies as being somewhat similar to them and so would have some empathy. On the other hand, when we read of towns and cities being razed for resisting, everyone being killed, as for example Romans did at times during their civil wars, it does make me wonder how they could be so cold bloodedly brutal. So I'm sure your points stand as well, to some extent anyway, and maybe even the dominant views given how easily brutal the ancients could be.

I don't know. How many hundreds of thousands of Japanese and German civilians did we kill in WW2? We're still pretty damn brutal.

[Razgovory]

The thing about soldiers in ancient times is that they were often ruthless criminals.  The line between soldier and bandit often was razor thin.  They tended to fight for loot and booty, not some higher ideals.  Rape, theft and murder were not only common, but some of the main motivations.  Even organized armies like the Romans tended to steal whatever wasn't nailed down.

Remember the story of Alexander and the Pirate.

It was a pertinent and true answer which was made to Alexander the Great by a pirate whom he had seized. When the King asked him what he meant by infesting the sea, the pirate defiantly replied 'The same as you do when you infest the whole world; but because I do it with a ship I am called a robber, and because you do it with a great fleet you are an emperor

St. Augustine ~ the City of God.

[citizen k]

an ancient therapeutic cleansing ritual for ptsd found in Numbers 31:19

And encamp ye without the camp seven days; whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify yourselves on the third day and on the seventh day, ye and your captives.

[Jacob]

Yeah, but these people lived in an alien moral and societal framework to what we have today. We live in a society built on a mix of two universalist moral frameworks, the Enlightenment  and Christianity. In Classical antiquity there is no moral, religious or philosophical value placed
on things like the universal brotherhood of man, mercy, forgiveness, tolerance, etc. It's a selfish society where extreme othering of individuals outside one's own locale and class was the norm and seen as a positive good. Killing people probably did less psychological damage to people with that kind of world view.

A good point. To my mind there's a bit of a chicken and egg thing going on with that. Perhaps the brutality of the age led to a what might be termed PTSD today; the coping mechanism became expressed the kind of penchant for brutality, xenophobia and so on that you're talking about.

[Tonitrus]

I thought all the violence on TV and in video games was supposed to have desensitized us into murderous barbarians.