Medieval History and the American Western

[crazy canuck]

likewise, this was post-war France, after all, where violence by armed bands, the expurgation of collaborators, the transformative power of the Libération probably were much more present...

I'm curious about these armed bands in post war France. What's that all about?

It's called in French the épuration: basically, it is the hunt, by members of the various factions of the résistance, of people associated with Vichy (collaborateurs), coupled with some actual fighting by former partisans of Vichy.  Historian Henry Rousso estimates the number of summary executions at between 8000 and 9000 following the Libération.

Wow, that is some rough justice.  Is there an indication that people took advantage of this opportunity to off rivals who may not necessarily have been Vichy.

[Jacob]

It's called in French the épuration: basically, it is the hunt, by members of the various factions of the résistance, of people associated with Vichy (collaborateurs), coupled with some actual fighting by former partisans of Vichy.  Historian Henry Rousso estimates the number of summary executions at between 8000 and 9000 following the Libération.

Interesting. I vaguely remember a French comic book on the subject... maybe calle the Black and the Red or something like that, but that's about all I've ever heard about it.

I mean, I assume that collaborators were liquidated after liberation, but I never really knew it was an extended period.

[Oexmelin]

Wow, that is some rough justice.  Is there an indication that people took advantage of this opportunity to off rivals who may not necessarily have been Vichy.

Absolutely. But it seems to have been fewer than what was expected / feared - though of course it is incredibly difficult to get a good sense of what were true grievances. Also, note that the number includes peoples who were assassinated as a result of a concerted policy of résistance in places still either occupied or in the process of being liberated, and some who were executed under ad hoc "tribunals" - as the new order was not quite in place. These numbers also dwarf the number of individuals who, in turn, were indeed judged by the new tribunals (about 130 000 by 1948).

All in all, that must have been a pretty extraordinary (in the proper sense) period.

[Oexmelin]

I mean, I assume that collaborators were liquidated after liberation, but I never really knew it was an extended period.

Liquidation per se was immediately after the Liberation (1944-1945). "Legal purge" continued until the 1950s, with death penalty or "civic death" being meted out.

[Jacob]

"Civic death"?

[Oexmelin]

Well, it's not quite civic death - rather "national indignity". People found guilty of national indignity were stripped of various civic rights (voting rights, eligibility, excluded from civil service, from the bar, from various public professions, from rank in the army, stripping of medals, etc.)

[Scipio]

Well, it's not quite civic death - rather "national indignity". People found guilty of national indignity were stripped of various civic rights (voting rights, eligibility, excluded from civil service, from the bar, from various public professions, from rank in the army, stripping of medals, etc.)

Sweet.  A bill of attainder.  How positively medieval.

[Oexmelin]

Considering it followed a Nazi collaborationist regime, which had used military defeat to effectively toppled the Republic, I figure it was a pretty small price to pay - the Italian Civil War served as a good example of what not to do...

I seem to recall the Union used very similar measures during the Reconstruction.

[Razgovory]

Considering it followed a Nazi collaborationist regime, which had used military defeat to effectively toppled the Republic, I figure it was a pretty small price to pay - the Italian Civil War served as a good example of what not to do...

I seem to recall the Union used very similar measures during the Reconstruction.

If only.

[ulmont]

Considering it followed a Nazi collaborationist regime, which had used military defeat to effectively toppled the Republic, I figure it was a pretty small price to pay - the Italian Civil War served as a good example of what not to do...

I seem to recall the Union used very similar measures during the Reconstruction.

If only.

No, the Union did.  Like "couldn't be a teacher or a lawyer if you had been a rebel."  Those were overturned by the Supreme Court IIRC.

[Razgovory]

How long did they last?  I know many confederate officers went on to important politicians.  Hell, one went on to be a general in the Spanish American war.

[ulmont]

How long did they last?  I know many confederate officers went on to important politicians.  Hell, one went on to be a general in the Spanish American war.

The "Ironclad Oath" was passed in 1862, and in 1865 was extended to all attorneys.  In 1866 it was struck down, at least with respect to attorneys (and in 1867 as to priests).

[Capetan Mihali]

I mean, I assume that collaborators were liquidated after liberation, but I never really knew it was an extended period.

Liquidation per se was immediately after the Liberation (1944-1945). "Legal purge" continued until the 1950s, with death penalty or "civic death" being meted out.

Like Robert Brasillach, the only (AFAIK) person actually executed for "intellectual crimes," in the atmosphere of 44.  If he'd made it until 45-46, I think he would've ended up like Céline, with a short period of imprisonment and civil death.

[Drakken]

Considering it followed a Nazi collaborationist regime, which had used military defeat to effectively toppled the Republic, I figure it was a pretty small price to pay - the Italian Civil War served as a good example of what not to do...

I seem to recall the Union used very similar measures during the Reconstruction.

Especially a Nazi collaborationist regime which many of its foremost members, either intellectuals or officers - Petain included, were actually covertly taking Germany's side in 1939 in private talks because France was, in their eyes, fighting the wrong enemy rather than the Commies and Stalin's stooges. Some of them - Petain still included, were suspected to have fought or ran the war half-assed until Germany ran over France, wishing Germany's victory. And finally remains the only government of an Allied country to become a satellite of Nazi Germany of its own free will, even though the dying government of the IIIrd Republic had already been overtaken by Petain by that time. Even Leopold III, captured he was, refused to administer or sanction any Belgian government of Hitler's choosing after his surrender.



They got off quite lightly compared to, say, Norway.

[Drakken]

How long did they last?  I know many confederate officers went on to important politicians.  Hell, one went on to be a general in the Spanish American war.

Until 1953, when all convicted that were still alive were amnistied of these charges.