Elite Universities and Their Cultural and Political Dominance ?

[Fate]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Scores on standardized tests and licensing exams trump coming from elite schools by a long shot in the US medical field if you want to be in private practice. You could go be a graduate of the Harvard School of Medicine, but it won't help you one bit in residency if your USMLE Step 1 score is below that of a kid who went to a low tier state medical school.

I'm sure name brand helps more if you're interested in academic medicine, but there's no money to be had in that.

[Jacob]

I am going to disagree with you BB.  In my experience the business and legal elite in Canada come from the schools you listed.  Sure there are few outliers that come form the U of M but they are the exception that proves the rule.

I agree with you regarding the political elite but that is, I think, explained by the fact we dont really have a "political elite" in the same way as the US or UK.

I don't think I've had enough exposure to business and legal elites to argue this one way or the other, but I'm interested in who you consider the business and legal elite of Canada.

Legal Elite: Partners in major law firms (what's a major law firm?), judges (past some level - provincial supreme court and up?) and senior lawyers in the civil service?

Business Elite: named officers and board members of significant corporations (what makes a corporation significant?)?

Something like that?

[MadImmortalMan]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Perhaps the way you frame your question, betrays your bias/mindset ?

What about systems whereby people rise to the 'top' in various fields of life, by virtue of their own merits ?

Seems to me the really really old Chinese civil service test method is a pretty great one. At least in concept.

[Admiral Yi]

Seems to me the really really old Chinese civil service test method is a pretty great one. At least in concept.

In concept.  That was a test of calligraphy and poetry writing.

[CountDeMoney]

And Stanford, which is arguably the most prestigious American university outside the Ivy League,

Very arguably.  University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, MIT and Duke would argue that very much.

[Josquius]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Perhaps the way you frame your question, betrays your bias/mindset ?

What about systems whereby people rise to the 'top' in various fields of life, by virtue of their own merits ?

Seems to me the really really old Chinese civil service test method is a pretty great one. At least in concept.

In theory yeah.
That still leads to the problem that some people are excellent at tests whilst other, possibly very clever, people aren't. And testing has little bearing on work in the real world.
And of course that the rich and privileged can afford all sorts of tutors who know the inner workings of the test and can prepare them for it, have better teachers, a better study environment, etc....

I really hate the test based focus of education.
Its a big part of the reason university in Sweden was so much better than in the UK; the majority of assessment was practical and in take home exams.

[Monoriu]

The test method is extremely onerous to operate.  Only governments and professional bodies can afford it. 

[crazy canuck]

I am going to disagree with you BB.  In my experience the business and legal elite in Canada come from the schools you listed.  Sure there are few outliers that come form the U of M but they are the exception that proves the rule.

I agree with you regarding the political elite but that is, I think, explained by the fact we dont really have a "political elite" in the same way as the US or UK.

I don't think I've had enough exposure to business and legal elites to argue this one way or the other, but I'm interested in who you consider the business and legal elite of Canada.

Legal Elite: Partners in major law firms (what's a major law firm?), judges (past some level - provincial supreme court and up?) and senior lawyers in the civil service?

Business Elite: named officers and board members of significant corporations (what makes a corporation significant?)?

Something like that?

business elites - the folks that run the major business interests in the country;
legal elites - the folks that give the business elites legal advice.

[Sheilbh]

What do you mean that Canada doesn't have a political elite like the UK or US?

[Monoriu]

I don't get the part about cultural dominance.  How do graduates of elite universities dominate culturally?

[Camerus]

I think it is safe to say that the "elite" universities in Canada don't dominate the cultural, political and business landscape to the extent that the American Ivy League or Oxbridge do.  I would attribute this primarily to:  lack of entrance exams for undergraduates, a relatively short history, a smaller, more spread-out population, and the fact that Canada has less global relevance, meaning fewer international applicants and thus less international prestige for our elite schools.  In any case, it's certainly been my personal experience that a U of T degree is at most usually only marginally more well-regarded than that of a less prestigious university.

Just anecdotally speaking, I've worked in a couple fields since getting my initial degree from the University of Toronto, and I can't say it seems to have made a huge difference.  In my current field, teaching, the fact that I've got 2 degrees from the University of Toronto with this or that award or scholarship seems to make zero difference in the job application process. No preference whatsoever is given to me over people who went to piss-ant universities.

On the other hand, using the phrase "University of Toronto graduate" in China (sometimes together with my accompanying tag-line of "Canada's best university") has led to a couple different opportunities for me here outside of work.

[Monoriu]

I think it is safe to say that the "elite" universities in Canada don't dominate the cultural, political and business landscape to the extent that the American Ivy League or Oxbridge do.  I would attribute this primarily to:  lack of entrance exams for undergraduates, a relatively short history, a smaller, more spread-out population, and the fact that Canada has less global relevance, meaning fewer international applicants and thus less international prestige for our elite schools.  In any case, it's certainly been my person experience that a U of T degree is at most usually only marginally more-well regarded than that of a less prestigious university.

Just anecdotally speaking, I've worked in a couple fields since getting my initial degree from the University of Toronto, and I can't say it seems to have made a huge difference.  In my current field, teaching, the fact that I've got 2 degrees from the University of Toronto with this or that award or scholarship seems to make zero difference in the job application process. No preference whatsoever is given to me over people who went to piss-ant universities.

On the other hand, using the phrase "University of Toronto graduate" in China (sometimes together with my accompanying tag-line of "Canada's best university") has led to a couple different opportunities for me here outside of work.

I think the difference is that in Canada, it is so easy to get into a university.  That kinda cheapens the value of a degree from a good university.  In China, it is ultra hard to get into the best universities.  People study years and years and burn their midnight oil and only the best of the best is admitted.  So the value of a degree from, say, Peking university is very high.  Employers often assume that the same is true in Canada, so they attach a lot of value to a U of T degree. 

[Camerus]

I think it is safe to say that the "elite" universities in Canada don't dominate the cultural, political and business landscape to the extent that the American Ivy League or Oxbridge do.  I would attribute this primarily to:  lack of entrance exams for undergraduates, a relatively short history, a smaller, more spread-out population, and the fact that Canada has less global relevance, meaning fewer international applicants and thus less international prestige for our elite schools.  In any case, it's certainly been my person experience that a U of T degree is at most usually only marginally more-well regarded than that of a less prestigious university.

Just anecdotally speaking, I've worked in a couple fields since getting my initial degree from the University of Toronto, and I can't say it seems to have made a huge difference.  In my current field, teaching, the fact that I've got 2 degrees from the University of Toronto with this or that award or scholarship seems to make zero difference in the job application process. No preference whatsoever is given to me over people who went to piss-ant universities.

On the other hand, using the phrase "University of Toronto graduate" in China (sometimes together with my accompanying tag-line of "Canada's best university") has led to a couple different opportunities for me here outside of work.

I think the difference is that in Canada, it is so easy to get into a university.  That kinda cheapens the value of a degree from a good university.  In China, it is ultra hard to get into the best universities.  People study years and years and burn their midnight oil and only the best of the best is admitted.  So the value of a degree from, say, Peking university is very high.  Employers often assume that the same is true in Canada, so they attach a lot of value to a U of T degree.

Yeah, no question.  The ease of getting into even the best universities (thus cheapening their value over less prestigious universities) was reflected in my "lack of entrance exams for undergraduates" reasoning.   IMO, even though it's not fashionable to express this belief in educational circles, entrance exams make sense, and their benefits outweigh their evils.

And yeah, I've noticed my students in China and others here seem to assume that it must be ultra hard to get into U of T, when in fact I've known any number of middling-students who went there, just because it was closest to home or really just because they could (as opposed to going there because they were the best students).

[Monoriu]

I wish the Canadian universities had very selective entrance exams.  Then my degree would actually mean a little more than a piece of paper.  As it is, the employers turn to work experience for selection and graduates compete on who has the best internships, who knows the most relevant people etc. 

[garbon]

I wish the Canadian universities had very selective entrance exams.  Then my degree would actually mean a little more than a piece of paper.  As it is, the employers turn to work experience for selection and graduates compete on who has the best internships, who knows the most relevant people etc. 

Although that's often the case here still. A Harvard degree with nothing to back it up still is a hard sell - although it may grant you the benefit of getting that first job interview.