What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

Started by Razgovory, January 17, 2012, 08:36:22 PM

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PDH

#165
January 21, 2012, 06:01:20 PM
Patagonia, having refused the West, is doomed to whiteness...
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Ideologue

#166
January 21, 2012, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2012, 06:01:20 PM
Patagonia, having refused the West, is doomed to whiteness...

I thought being doomed to whiteness was what happened when you embraced the West.
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

Razgovory

#167
January 21, 2012, 08:24:32 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 21, 2012, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2012, 06:01:20 PM
Patagonia, having refused the West, is doomed to whiteness...

I thought being doomed to whiteness was what happened when you embraced the West.

'dem Turks ain't getting any whiter.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Ideologue

#168
January 21, 2012, 08:41:54 PM
The one Turk I knew was this chick in law school (GO HOME), who was as pale as me, and had blue eyes.  (But nott hott, I'm afraid.)
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

Siege

#169
January 24, 2012, 08:22:07 PM
Hey, Lettow, what's the color white?
Colonies?



"All men are created equal, then some become infantry."

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

"Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même!"

Razgovory

#170
January 25, 2012, 08:17:20 AM
Quote from: Siege on January 24, 2012, 08:22:07 PM
Hey, Lettow, what's the color white?
Colonies?

It's all the other primary colors together.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

#171
January 25, 2012, 11:22:57 AM
If the "West" is to have any meaning as a concept other than a relative geographic and geopolitical designator, then not only is ancient Greece a part of it, it is THE critical founding point.  Virtually every idea typically conceived of as a core part of western thought, culture and politics traces a clear path back to ancient Greece.   Enlightenment rationalism in particular.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

dps

#172
January 25, 2012, 11:43:52 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 25, 2012, 11:22:57 AM
If the "West" is to have any meaning as a concept other than a relative geographic and geopolitical designator, then not only is ancient Greece a part of it, it is THE critical founding point.  Virtually every idea typically conceived of as a core part of western thought, culture and politics traces a clear path back to ancient Greece.   Enlightenment rationalism in particular.

I agree, but that doesn't necessarily mean that modern Greece is still part of the West.  Overall, I'm inclined to think that it is, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Viking

#173
January 25, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 25, 2012, 11:22:57 AM
If the "West" is to have any meaning as a concept other than a relative geographic and geopolitical designator, then not only is ancient Greece a part of it, it is THE critical founding point.  Virtually every idea typically conceived of as a core part of western thought, culture and politics traces a clear path back to ancient Greece.   Enlightenment rationalism in particular.

Well not the universality of human rights, popular sovreignty and the rule of law. Not every thought is a footnote on Plato.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

crazy canuck

#174
January 25, 2012, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 25, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 25, 2012, 11:22:57 AM
If the "West" is to have any meaning as a concept other than a relative geographic and geopolitical designator, then not only is ancient Greece a part of it, it is THE critical founding point.  Virtually every idea typically conceived of as a core part of western thought, culture and politics traces a clear path back to ancient Greece.   Enlightenment rationalism in particular.

Well not the universality of human rights, popular sovreignty and the rule of law. Not every thought is a footnote on Plato.

Yeah, our word for that.... what is it again... Democracy I think, probably has no relationship with the Greeks. :P 

We all stand on the shoulders of the ancient Greeks.

Valmy

#175
January 25, 2012, 12:23:13 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 25, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
Well not the universality of human rights, popular sovreignty and the rule of law. Not every thought is a footnote on Plato.

Yeah no Ancient Greeks ever thought the people should be sovereign.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

#176
January 25, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 25, 2012, 12:21:58 PM
Yeah, our word for that.... what is it again... Democracy I think, probably has no relationship with the Greeks. :P 

The Greeks are so anti-Western they do not even have a word for Democracy.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

crazy canuck

#177
January 25, 2012, 12:29:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 25, 2012, 12:21:58 PM
Yeah, our word for that.... what is it again... Democracy I think, probably has no relationship with the Greeks. :P

The Greeks are so anti-Western they do not even have a word for Democracy.

:D

grumbler

#178
January 25, 2012, 12:34:15 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 25, 2012, 11:22:57 AM
If the "West" is to have any meaning as a concept other than a relative geographic and geopolitical designator, then not only is ancient Greece a part of it, it is THE critical founding point.  Virtually every idea typically conceived of as a core part of western thought, culture and politics traces a clear path back to ancient Greece.   Enlightenment rationalism in particular.
I don't agree.  This argument is the same as the argument that, if the "United States" is to have any meaning  as a concept other than a relative geographic and geopolitical designator, then not only is France a part of it, it is THE critical founding point, because of the influence of people like Montesquieu on the US constitution.

Some individual Ancient Greek thinkers were the founders of some significant concepts embedded in the modern concept of the West, but Ancient Greece itself wasn't a part of the West. 
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!
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