Stupid question: When Black and white people have seeeeex!

[Eochaid]

Look out behind you! It's a Jew!

Lolz, just kidding.  It wasn't a Jew, just a gypsy.

Amarta Amarta...

Kevin

[grumbler]

Actually, its Walloon, not Wallon.

So, you concede that you don't know what a Wallon is?

We inherited our tribalism, are dealing with it and actually managed to create the EEC right after World War 2, thank you very much.

How's your fake imported tribalism going, now that you've genocided Native Americans?

Kevin

I am willing to bet that there are more "Native Americans" in the US than there are Jews in Europe.

Seems to me that you are not managing your tribalism well at all, whereas the tribes in the US, while not necessarily wealthy, at least haven't been shoved into ovens by the millions.

[Eochaid]

I am willing to bet that there are more "Native Americans" in the US than there are Jews in Europe.

Seems to me that you are not managing your tribalism well at all, whereas the tribes in the US, while not necessarily wealthy, at least haven't been shoved into ovens by the millions.

Yay, another pointless debate with shaky comparisons. We were talking about nationalism, not religion. Jews never were a territorial power in Europe and never held sway over any significant tracts of land.

Godwin point goes to Grumbler

Anyway lets talk numbers!

European Jewish population in 1933: circa 9.5 million.
European Jewish population in 1945: circa 3.5 million.

Conservative estimated Native population in Northern America in 1492: circa 20 million
Native population in Northern America in 1890: circa 250,000.

Now that we've dealt with this remarkably unrelated topic, lets go back to my point: in the past 65 years Europe has come a long way, mostly putting petty nationalism aside. The mere fact that Arkestra and I aren't in the Somme shooting at Syt while Martinus is oppressed by Russians is a good illustration of that point.

Kevin

[Valmy]

Conservative estimated Native population in Northern America in 1492: circa 20 million
Native population in Northern America in 1890: circa 250,000.

Um...yeah disease pandemics along with intermarriage is absolutely the same as mass genocide.  Thanks Marty.

Now that we've dealt with this remarkably unrelated topic, lets go back to my point: in the past 65 years Europe has come a long way, mostly putting petty nationalism aside. The mere fact that Arkestra and I aren't in the Somme shooting at Syt while Martinus is oppressed by Russians is a good illustration of that point.

Yeah I agree...I just do not get why actual ethnic tensions are fine to you but some American pretending to be Irish and having a beer on St. Pats day is so offensive.

And anyway ethnic tensions are still very dangerous throughout Africa and Asia it is hardly a Euro thing, it is a scourge in the entire old world.

[Eochaid]

Yeah I agree...I just do not get why actual ethnic tensions are fine to you but some American pretending to be Irish and having a beer on St. Pats day is so offensive.

And anyway ethnic tensions are still very dangerous throughout Africa and Asia it is hardly a Euro thing, it is a scourge in the entire old world.

Of course ethnic tensions are a widespread problem. Most people and countries have to deal with pre-existing problems, doesn't it seem a little stupid for Americans to create divisions just for shites and giggle? Especially when they're kindling old tensions in Europe.

Besides, I hate posers. Fake [Ethnic]-Americans are like people who brag about how lethal they are in a fight when in fact they're yellow belts in Karate (and not the good female blond type that sexes you for three days and gives you money). Or people who pretend they were in the Army when all they did was be in the Territorial Army.

Kevin

   

[AnchorClanker]

Yeah I agree...I just do not get why actual ethnic tensions are fine to you but some American pretending to be Irish and having a beer on St. Pats day is so offensive.

And anyway ethnic tensions are still very dangerous throughout Africa and Asia it is hardly a Euro thing, it is a scourge in the entire old world.

Of course ethnic tensions are a widespread problem. Most people and countries have to deal with pre-existing problems, doesn't it seem a little stupid for Americans to create divisions just for shites and giggle? Especially when they're kindling old tensions in Europe.

Besides, I hate posers. Fake [Ethnic]-Americans are like people who brag about how lethal they are in a fight when in fact they're yellow belts in Karate (and not the good female blond type that sexes you for three days and gives you money). Or people who pretend they were in the Army when all they did was be in the Territorial Army.

Kevin

Kevin,

Would you make a distinction between ____-Americans who *do* have connection with their ancestry, etc and those who
claim to be _______-American and yet make no attempt to learn the language, travel, etc?  I would think there's a massive
difference between the Irish-American who actually knows about Ireland and has been there, and the guy who gets loaded
on St. Patrick's Day, picks fights with English people for fun, and has a shamrock tattoo on his person.

[Eochaid]

Kevin,

Would you make a distinction between ____-Americans who *do* have connection with their ancestry, etc and those who
claim to be _______-American and yet make no attempt to learn the language, travel, etc?  I would think there's a massive
difference between the Irish-American who actually knows about Ireland and has been there, and the guy who gets loaded
on St. Patrick's Day, picks fights with English people for fun, and has a shamrock tattoo on his person.

I do make a difference, as I explained in one of my previous posts. I only loathe the latter group.

Kevin

[AnchorClanker]

OK, I hadn't seen that post, and your meaning wasn't clear to me from the information I had available.
Thanks for the clarification.

[grumbler]

Yay, another pointless debate with shaky comparisons. We were talking about nationalism, not religion. Jews never were a territorial power in Europe and never held sway over any significant tracts of land. 

Yay, another clueless debater who runs away when his insults are turned against him.  The Jews of europe were not exterminated because of their religious practices, they were exterminated due to European tribalism and its need to find scapegoats.

Godwin point goes to Grumbler

You really need to learn what Godwin's Law has to say.  There is no "Godwin point' of which I am aware.

Anyway lets talk numbers!

European Jewish population in 1933: circa 9.5 million.
European Jewish population in 1945: circa 3.5 million.

Conservative estimated Native population in Northern America in 1492: circa 20 million
Native population in Northern America in 1890: circa 250,000.

Ah, the old "make up numbers which have nothing to do with the issue at hand" gambit. 

Here are the relevant numbers:
Native Americans in 2000 census: 4.3 million
Current Jewish population in Europe (including all of Russia): 2.0 million (est)

Even if the estimate is low by 100%, my point is still made.

Now that we've dealt with this remarkably unrelated topic, lets go back to my point: in the past 65 years Europe has come a long way, mostly putting petty nationalism aside. The mere fact that Arkestra and I aren't in the Somme shooting at Syt while Martinus is oppressed by Russians is a good illustration of that point.

I am not sure why you even bothered to mention the US and its natives, if your argument was that Europe has put aside "petty nationalism."  I would agree with you that your comment was "remarkably unrelated" to the topic at hand.  In fact, I would go further and call it "remarkably trollish."

However, I don't agree that nationalism does not exist except when people are shooting at one another or being oppressed, your your argument fails to persuade due to lack of evidence.

[Eochaid]

Yes there is a Godwin point. You just won it for bringing up nazi atrocities.

As for numbers, they correspond to start/end dates of genocidal persecutions for both groups. Obviously Americans (and other various predecessors) aren't directly responsible for most of those deaths, but they usually did the best they could to kill their share.

As for 20,000,000 natives in 2009?  How do you go from 250,000 to 20,000,000 in 100 years? If anyone with a drop of native blood is native, how convenient.

Of course nationalism exists during peace time, but its kept at reasonable levels. If we stop slaughtering each other and can start a structure like the EU, then I think I can safely say we're moving in the right direction, with nationalisms slowly turning into cultural pride.

Kevin

[Valmy]

As for 20,000,000 natives in 2009?  How do you go from 250,000 to 20,000,000 in 100 years? If anyone with a drop of native blood is native, how convenient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

He said there were 4.3 million Native Americans and that is supported by census data.  Note this is just in the United States not in North America.  How do we tell who counts as a Native American?  It is self identified.

Also how many people in Mexico and Central America are of Native American descent?  Like basically all of them?

I am not sure what you are getting at.

[grumbler]

Of course ethnic tensions are a widespread problem. Most people and countries have to deal with pre-existing problems, doesn't it seem a little stupid for Americans to create divisions just for shites and giggle? Especially when they're kindling old tensions in Europe.

No Americans are creating "divisions" just for shits and giggles.

Besides, I hate posers. Fake [Ethnic]-Americans are like people who brag about how lethal they are in a fight when in fact they're yellow belts in Karate (and not the good female blond type that sexes you for three days and gives you money). Or people who pretend they were in the Army when all they did was be in the Territorial Army.

I hate the fucking posers as well.  Fake ethnics in the US are almost as annoying as fake European "experts" on the US who post on message boards on the internet, spewing crazy crap about how Americans "create divisions just for shites and giggle" because they want to seem knowledgeable.  I think the fake experts are worse posers than the fake lethal fighters.

[grumbler]

Yes there is a Godwin point. You just won it for bringing up nazi atrocities.

Gotcha!  You brought up the Nazis, you violated Godwins law, so you lose the argument by definition.

As for numbers, they correspond to start/end dates of genocidal persecutions for both groups. Obviously Americans (and other various predecessors) aren't directly responsible for most of those deaths, but they usually did the best they could to kill their share.

Your made-up numbers correspond to nothing in the argument.

As for 20,000,000 natives in 2009?  How do you go from 250,000 to 20,000,000 in 100 years? If anyone with a drop of native blood is native, how convenient.

  So what you are saying is that actual US census results must be dismissed because it is implausable that they could be true based on your made-up numbers?

How about we toss the made-up 250,000 number, instead?

Of course nationalism exists during peace time, but its kept at reasonable levels. If we stop slaughtering each other and can start a structure like the EU, then I think I can safely say we're moving in the right direction, with nationalisms slowly turning into cultural pride.

Time will tell, of course, but the fact is that Europe isn't there yet, and "tribalism" is far stronger in Europe than in the US.  So, so sneering at US ethnic "posers" seems a pretty dumb idea when you have actual European ethnic hosers willing to kill for their ethnic beliefs.  At least the "posers" are harmless.

[PDH]

Ethnicity is fictive by definition.

[Neil]

Ethnicity is fictive by definition.

Incorrect.  Just because something is made up doesn't mean it's not real.