Scotland To Vote On Independence In Late 2014

[The Larch]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spain-could-wield-veto-over-scotlands-eu-membership-6292846.html

Spain could wield veto over Scotland's EU membership
Independence for Scots could embolden separatists in Catalonia and Basque region, Madrid fears

Spain is standing in the way of Scotland's ambitions to become an independent nation within the European Union because of fears that it could spark the break-up of the Spanish state.

Spanish officials have registered concerns with counterparts in the United Kingdom over the Scottish government's independence blueprint, senior Whitehall sources confirmed yesterday.

Spain has indicated it could block an independent Scotland's accession to the European Union, sources said. It has already refused to recognise Kosovo's existence as an independent state. Madrid fears such moves will encourage separatist ambitions in Spanish regions, particularly Catalonia and the Basque region. Spain's refusal to recognise Kosovo has frustrated the former Serbian province's ambitions to enter the union.

[grumbler]

..

The unionists need to both persuade the Scots that there's no point in upsetting the status quo (in other words, stress the positive, pragmatic benefits of the union) and also counteract the myths that the SNP peddles about the dominance of "Westminster".

On the other hand some part of me in the back of my brain suspects the Tory Party would not be gutted if Scotland left; after all, as things stand, it would help ensure their electoral dominance for a generation, or until it pulls a reverse-Social Democrats and the frothing eurosceptics form a new party or join UKIP.

This is my concern as well.

[Valmy]

Interesting report:

Kind of sad to see.  Nationalism on the rise.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting report:

Kind of sad to see.  Nationalism on the rise.

I don't think it's sad.  The best news is that Englishness seems to be becoming more open and inclusive, which is great

[Valmy]

I don't think it's sad.  The best news is that Englishness seems to be becoming more open and inclusive, which is great

Yeah that second part which is, indeed, a good thing.  The Ethnic minorities cheering on the English Lion and all that.

[Gups]

The English are simply recognising the blatant inequity of the failure to answer the West Lothian Question, that's all.

The surprise is that people aren't more outraged.

I think most English peole just don't think they have anything in common with the Scots, not more than other English-speaking people at any rate. I fell just as close, if not closer, to Aussies, Kiwis, Irish, Yanks, Canadians etc. It's time to end the union and move on.

[Josquius]

England != the south.

I feel a lot closer to the Scots than I do southerners.

[Gups]

You aren't typical.

Going by Shelf's report, there's no difference between English regions on the subject.

[Zoupa]

France is Scotland's old and faithful friend. That isn't a bad thing.

France isn't anyone's friend, nor are they faithful.

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/aboutus/news/display/?id=7313

Omni Modo Fidelis.

[MadImmortalMan]

Soooo if Scotland joins the EU, they will eventually have to adopt the euro, right?

[Josquius]

You aren't typical.

Going by Shelf's report, there's no difference between English regions on the subject.

It doesn't say anything about that.

Interesting report:
http://www.ippr.org/publications/55/8542/the-dog-that-finally-barked-england-as-an-emerging-political-community
Main points:

In respect of English attitudes to devolution and the union, the report finds that:
...
• While support for Scottish independence remains low – only 22 per cent say Scots  should go it alone – the English strongly support the view that the current devolved  settlement should be reformed. At fully 80 per cent, there is also overwhelming support in England for 'devolution-max' (full fiscal autonomy) for Scotland, with 44 per cent agreeing strongly. 79 per cent say Scottish MPs should be barred from voting on English laws, with an absolute majority agreeing strongly with that proposition.
• There has been a sharp rise since 2007 in the proportion of English voters who say they agree strongly with barring Scottish MPs from voting on English laws and 'devolution-max', which underlines the intensity of feeling now associated with these reforms.
In respect of English views on how they themselves are governed, the report finds that:
...
• English voters appear to want what we call an 'English dimension' to the country's politics – that is, distinct governance arrangements for England as a whole.
• At present, though, views as to what form this English dimension should take have yet to crystallise around a single alternative, with support divided between some form of 'English votes on English laws' and an English parliament.
In respect of trends in national identity, the report finds that:
...
• The proportion of the population that prioritise their English over their British identity (40 per cent) is now twice as large as that which prioritise their British over their English identity (16 per cent). 60 per cent of English respondents believe that the English have become more aware of Englishness in recent years.
• English identity appears to be stronger than British identity – or the English component of dual English-British identity stronger than the British component – across England's diverse regions (including London) and across all social and
demographic groups, with one exception: members of ethnic minorities, who place much greater emphasis on their British identity. The report, however, also points to tentative evidence of a growth in English identification within ethnic minority communities in recent years, albeit from a lower base.

This makes me cry.
Fuck Englishness. I don't see myself as English at all unless there's football or maybe rugby involved. I hate being a minority, especially on such potentially dangerous topics.

Which is funny because football is heavily to blame for the subdivision first attitude of many Brits.

[Lettow77]

 But, Languish, nationalism is so moé!

[OttoVonBismarck]

If I was English (and I'm not, but I'm pro-England and anti-Scotland) I'd be fine with Scotland leaving but I'd question how you divvy up the oil in the North Sea. I don't know much about the region, but if I was English I'd fear Scotland would get a huge swathe of an exclusivity zone up there.

I'd insist on some sort of settlement which preserves the UK's current zone, perhaps with an independent Scotland being a partner in using it. It's one thing for tiny Norway to have such a vast exclusive region, but I see no reason the UK should stand for losing so much potential wealth. Who has really developed the oil fields in Britain's exclusive zone? Has it been Scottish oil companies or more likely international / British oil companies (obviously Scotland is part of Britain, but a tiny part.)

[Josquius]

If I was English (and I'm not, but I'm pro-England and anti-Scotland) I'd be fine with Scotland leaving but I'd question how you divvy up the oil in the North Sea. I don't know much about the region, but if I was English I'd fear Scotland would get a huge swathe of an exclusivity zone up there.

I'd insist on some sort of settlement which preserves the UK's current zone, perhaps with an independent Scotland being a partner in using it. It's one thing for tiny Norway to have such a vast exclusive region, but I see no reason the UK should stand for losing so much potential wealth. Who has really developed the oil fields in Britain's exclusive zone? Has it been Scottish oil companies or more likely international / British oil companies (obviously Scotland is part of Britain, but a tiny part.)

"Its Scotlands oil!!" is a big SNP argument.
To which of course I can't help but wonder shy Shetland doesn't go independent with all its oil. Or indeed why north east Scotland doesn't break away with its oil, so it isn't subsidising Glasgow on the west coast with it.

[Sheilbh]

Soooo if Scotland joins the EU, they will eventually have to adopt the euro, right?

Yep.  But they'd have to join like Croatia or Poland one day has to join. 

As with the national debt question I think it'll be settled after the vote.  I don't think anyone can predict even whether there'll be a Euro in 2014, when they vote, or 2016-17 which would be the earliest they could become independent.  At the moment the SNP have said they'll keep the pound and George Osborne said he won't let them (), but chances are they'd keep their currency pegged to Sterling for a while at least.

I'd insist on some sort of settlement which preserves the UK's current zone, perhaps with an independent Scotland being a partner in using it. It's one thing for tiny Norway to have such a vast exclusive region, but I see no reason the UK should stand for losing so much potential wealth. Who has really developed the oil fields in Britain's exclusive zone? Has it been Scottish oil companies or more likely international / British oil companies (obviously Scotland is part of Britain, but a tiny part.)

You can't divide Scottish companies from British companies.  The oil itself has been explored and pumped by the major companies like Shell and BP.  But Aberdeen is the home of many firms that grew up to explore the oil, to maintain the rigs, deal with spills and lots of other engineering companies.  They go for global contracts now.  So the oil companies are basically multi-nationals but there's a very strong sector around them in Scotland that competes worldwide.

Scotland would get the oil.  In recent years I believe, but could be wrong, that the revenue stream from oil has been less than the Barnett formula subsidy.