Congress Ends Ethanol Subsidy

[Ed Anger]

fun bit of trivia:

A few years ago, the corn output of Darke county in Ohio went to the ethanol plants. Which annoyed the pig farmers in the county, as they had to ship in corn to feed their pigs.

[ulmont]

Mongers, the net energy return depends on which studies - and how recent ones - you look at.  At the end of the day the new energy is coming from the sun.

[mongers]

Mongers, the net energy return depends on which studies - and how recent ones - you look at.  At the end of the day the new energy is coming from the sun.

I was interested in the energy used, to plant, maintain, fertilise, spay, gather and process the corn, which given US agriculture relies almost entirely on fossil fuel for energy inputs, is quite a considerable quantity of refined fuels.

[ulmont]

Yes, and that's what my reply was directed to - it depends on which study you look at.

[mongers]

Yes, and that's what my reply was directed to - it depends on which study you look at.

Yes, but those fossil fuels used don't come directly from the sun, well unless you consider 50-60 million years not too round about a way.

[KRonn]

Always seemed rather daft, growing a food crop and then turning it into portable fuel, would the energy in the finished fuel even cover the energy costs of growing and processing it into ethanol ?

Much better, if it's not needed for food, to turn the land over to some fast growing 'tree' crop like willow or that brazilian grass and burn that directly in local power stations (probably new ones) for electricity.

From what I've seen written about US corn ethanol, it requires about as much fuel to make the stuff as is produced. Sugar ethonol, at least, is a more efficient process, as I understand it.

And prior to this law change the US banned Brazil (and probably ethanol products from other countries) from being imported. Of course to protect the domestic money making interests.   

[Admiral Yi]

There is a mandate to mix in a certain amount of ethanol into gasoline, in order to decrease oil consumption.  Paradoxically, sometimes this drops your fuel mileage so much that you're actually using more gasoline to go the same number of miles.

There is?  When I pump gas there are three grades.  The 89 has ethanol added, the other two don't.

[Capetan Mihali]

To be fair, I never received the ethanol consumption subsidy that, by rights, I deserve.

[Ideologue]

Yes, and that's what my reply was directed to - it depends on which study you look at.

Yes, but those fossil fuels used don't come directly from the sun, well unless you consider 50-60 million years not too round about a way.

I don't.  Almost all human-accessible energy is ultimately solar, even uranium, and hydroelectric and wind wouldn't work without a solar component.  Geothermal is the only one that isn't that I can think of.

To be fair, I never received the ethanol consumption subsidy that, by rights, I deserve.

Go to a gay bar.

[mongers]

To be fair, I never received the ethanol consumption subsidy that, by rights, I deserve.

Actually, as a law-abiding citizen your ethanol consumption causes a marked reduction in your carbon footprint; as being sauced up means you're unable to drive on those given evenings and so don't burn any fossil fuels.

In short Capt.Mal needs a govt. subsidy.

[Capetan Mihali]

To be fair, I never received the ethanol consumption subsidy that, by rights, I deserve.

Go to a gay bar.

I'm allergic to alcohol, I break out in subsidies.

[Capetan Mihali]

To be fair, I never received the ethanol consumption subsidy that, by rights, I deserve.

Actually, as a law-abiding citizen your ethanol consumption causes a marked reduction in your carbon footprint; as being sauced up means you're unable to drive on those given evenings and so don't burn any fossil fuels.

Cork and trade?

[mongers]

To be fair, I never received the ethanol consumption subsidy that, by rights, I deserve.

Actually, as a law-abiding citizen your ethanol consumption causes a marked reduction in your carbon footprint; as being sauced up means you're unable to drive on those given evenings and so don't burn any fossil fuels.

Cork and trade?

You should start this scheme up, seriously.   

The figures I've found suggest that a 750ml bottle of French wine imported to the East coast, say NYC or New Jersey will have a total carbon footprint of around 2-2.25 kg. 

Whereas your gallon of gas you might use of an evening 10.5 kg of C02.
(Imp.gal)

Hell you could drink 4 bottle in an evening and still be more environmentally friendly.   

[Admiral Yi]

As long as you sleep it off in the park then walk home in the morning.

[ulmont]

Yes, and that's what my reply was directed to - it depends on which study you look at.

Yes, but those fossil fuels used don't come directly from the sun, well unless you consider 50-60 million years not too round about a way.

To give you a couple of data points:

We conclude that the NEV of corn ethanol has been rising over time due to technological advances in ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production. We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient as indicated by an energy output:input ratio of 1.34.

http://www.usda.gov/oce/reports/energy/aer-814.pdf

(ranges from 1.06 to 5.4 depending on the type of stock and the estimates for co-products)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance#Energy_balance_reports