Save Europe Day

[Sheilbh]

Are we talking about the same UK whose only objective today was to protect the City? Is that the standard-bearer against protectionism?

Protectionism doesn't mean anything to protect an industry.  Protectionism's about protecting an industry from competition.  That's different from trying to stop regulations that a government would think hurt a sector of their economy.

The government's objection was precisely that EU regulation would make it impossible for the City to compete with Switzerland, Dubai, Hong Kong or New York.  I think they'd probably support a liberalisation of regulations on financial services in the EU and the establishment of a Common Market in services (at last).  So none of their position's protectionist.

[Richard Hakluyt]

So the City is to be taxed into oblivion because the Greeks are not as thrifty as the Germans  ?

[The Minsky Moment]

I find all the fuss funny.
When you spend more than you earn you're going to be in trouble one day. This day is more or less now.   

But we are told it's the fault of capitalism. Hell yeah. 

Seems to me that the opposite is happening - that the premise coming out of the summit is that the cause of the problem was fiscal indiscipline; hence the only concrete being proposed are limitations on government spending. 

When in reality government deficits have little to do with the present crisis.  In fact, of all the vulnerable countries, only Greece had serious fiscal issues pre-crisis.

[MadImmortalMan]

I can't name a nation without serious fiscal issues pre-crisis.

[Sheilbh]

I can't name a nation without serious fiscal issues pre-crisis.

Of the crisis nations, Ireland and Spain.  Even Italy had seen debt decline as a percent of GDP and were running a surplus for some of the time.

I believe Portugal was in deep trouble so I'd probably link them in with the Greeks.

[Tamas]

If you are in deep fiscal troubles the moment some kind of shit hits the fan, then you do have serious fiscal issues even when goings are good, you are just not noticing it.

[Sheilbh]

If you are in deep fiscal troubles the moment some kind of shit hits the fan, then you do have serious fiscal issues even when goings are good, you are just not noticing it.

What were Ireland and Spain's deep fiscal issues?

[Admiral Yi]

What were Ireland and Spain's deep fiscal issues?

Ireland's deep fiscal issue is they assumed a fuckload of bank liabilities.

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop on Spain.

[Sheilbh]

Ireland's deep fiscal issue is they assumed a fuckload of bank liabilities.

That was before the crisis hit?

And let's not forget the Irish weren't keen on that idea.  They were put under massive pressure by the UK and other European 'partners'.

[Admiral Yi]

That was before the crisis hit?

That was before Irish yields started rising I think.

And let's not forget the Irish weren't keen on that idea.  They were put under massive pressure by the UK and other European 'partners'.

I've read differently, and it always doesn't have anything to do with anything.

woops, also

[MadImmortalMan]

Explain to me how Spain supposedly ran a surplus but their debt never went down.

2005 debt--$478 billion

2006 debt--$500 billion


That's a decrease in the debt to gdp ratio for them, but the debt didn't get smaller. Spain's "surplus" that year was 2%


Ireland:

2005 debt--$53.9 billion

2006 debt--$56.6 billion



Ireland is supposed to have run a 3% surplus in 2006. WTF happened to the extra twelve billion or so dollars? Their debt should have dropped by six billion.


My numbers come from The Economist.

[Razgovory]

If you are in deep fiscal troubles the moment some kind of shit hits the fan, then you do have serious fiscal issues even when goings are good, you are just not noticing it.

I think Ireland's problem was that it was simply small.  A large wave could capsize it nor matter how good it was doing.

[MadImmortalMan]

If you are in deep fiscal troubles the moment some kind of shit hits the fan, then you do have serious fiscal issues even when goings are good, you are just not noticing it.

I think Ireland's problem was that it was simply small.  A large wave could capsize it nor matter how good it was doing.

Absolutely. The same for Greece and Portugal. I guess the lesson is the smaller you are, the tighter your balance sheet needs to be.

[Warspite]

What were Ireland and Spain's deep fiscal issues?

Ireland's deep fiscal issue is they assumed a fuckload of bank liabilities.

Private bank liabilities are a fiscal issue?

[Warspite]

There would be only one downside to the UK leaving the EU

A bizarre statement, given that you claim to be a free-market liberal.

Who, apart from the UK, is another EU member state of significance trying to stand against a protectionist vision of the common market?

Are we talking about the same UK whose only objective today was to protect the City? Is that the standard-bearer against protectionism?

Yes. Trying to preserve deregulation is not protectionism. You may not agree with it, but it is not protectionism.