Who will be the Republican Nominee for President (post Cain)

[Berkut]

My point is that the reason THIS issue has legs is that DG and Raz want him to be the voice of the racists in the Republican party, because they very much want it to be the case that the Republican part is all about racism.

I like it how you always know what other people think.  I do think that Republicans picked up the racists when Democrats dumped them in 1960ies, but this has nothing to do with Paul.  Paul has always been his own fruitcake, even if he were nominally a Republican for much of his career. 

I've said this many times to you, and I'll say it one more time:  sometimes people mean what they say, and don't have any hidden motives.  There is no need to play a game of Kremlinology with my words, I'm not really that complicated.

You are right about that - you certainly are not very complicated.

You just keep playing that race card in your overly simple manner. You and Raz.

[DGuller]

You are right about that - you certainly are not very complicated.

You just keep playing that race card in your overly simple manner. You and Raz.

It's not playing a race card if what you're saying is true.  Racism as a political issue certainly became more nuanced and concealed since the days of George Wallace, but if you don't see it still being in play, then you're either willfully blind, or as usual playing too hard to appear even-handed.

[Berkut]

Of course, "racism" as a political concept has not existed in US politics in a generation, but why let that stop you?

Have you seen the studies estimating Obama lost 5% of the vote in 2008 for being black?

No, cannot say that I have.

But even if it is true, that doesn't address my point, and if anything disproves DGullers rather bizarre claim that most racists are Republicans. After all, if they are all Republicans, they aren't voting for Obama no matter what color he is, because he is a Dem. So if millions of people are refusing to vote for him because he is black, they must be people who would have voted for him otherwise.

And what do we call those people? Democrats. Or independents, at least.

But my point you are responding to is simply that "racism" is not a political concept, and has not been for decades. Nobody runs on the racism platform, there is no defined body of voters who are racists and vote as a bloc of any kind at all.

There are still lots of racists out there of course. But the idea that they are concentrated in one party or another is laughable. DG supposed "rigor" when it comes to statistical analysis is right up there with Marty's expertise in US law when he tosses out completely unsupported claims like that.

[Berkut]

You are right about that - you certainly are not very complicated.

You just keep playing that race card in your overly simple manner. You and Raz.

It's not playing a race card if what you're saying is true. 

OK, lets see the stats that show that most racists are Republicans. Lets see the study, the statistical analysis, the reasoning for why we should accept your claim that this is true.

Here is what I know, although it is rather weak evidence, being based on personal experience only. I know personally very few people who I would consider to hold racist views. In fact, prior to moving to upstate New York, I didn't really know any.

But since moving here, I run into people every now and again who think nothing of saying something like "That nigger Obama..." and then some stupid shit about whatever. Or just bitching about black people, or immigrants in general. And you know what? They are all middle class, union card carrying members of the Democratic Party, like most everyone in my wife's family demographic. Now, not everyone in my wife's rather large family is like that of course, but everyone in my wife's family IS a democrat.

The idea that one party has some kind of monopoly or even lions share of the "racist vote" is ridiculous. You pulled that straight out of your ass based on idiotic stereotypes, probably about Southerners in general is my guess.

[DGuller]

If I had to justify every opinion that I hold with extensive and exhaustive statistical studies, then I would believe in very little.  Sometimes you have limited information, and have to rely on common sense and personal observations.  Concluding that Republican party appeals much more to hardcore racists than Democratic party is frankly nowhere near the top of the list of conclusions I worry being wrong about.  I've been wrong before, so I can be wrong about this.  But, we both know that I'm not, and that you're just doing your usual Berkut schtick.

[Berkut]

If I had to justify every opinion that I hold with extensive and exhaustive statistical studies, then I would believe in very little.

Extensive and exhaustive? How about non-existensive and cursory? Got any of those kinds of studies?

Sometimes you have limited information, and have to rely on common  sense and personal observations.

You know what people who are not driven by faith and ignorance do when they have "limited information"? They only draw limited conclusions. Those don't include treasures like "ZOMG the racists all flocked to the Republicans!" because they want it to be true.

Concluding that Republican party  appeals much more to hardcore racists than Democratic party is frankly  nowhere near the top of the list of conclusions I worry being wrong  about.  I've been wrong before, so I can be wrong about this.  But, we  both know that I'm not, and that you're just doing your usual Berkut  schtick.

In other words, no, you don't have any reason to believe that beyond that you want it to be true. As expected.

We can see just how "rigorous" your demand for actual evidence is when it comes to your politics.

[garbon]

Has anybody ever realized that he's not really black to begin with?

I've already voiced that I'm blacker in the cultural sense.

[DGuller]

You are right about that - you certainly are not very complicated.

You just keep playing that race card in your overly simple manner. You and Raz.

It's not playing a race card if what you're saying is true.

OK, lets see the stats that show that most racists are Republicans. Lets see the study, the statistical analysis, the reasoning for why we should accept your claim that this is true.

Here is what I know, although it is rather weak evidence, being based on personal experience only. I know personally very few people who I would consider to hold racist views. In fact, prior to moving to upstate New York, I didn't really know any.

But since moving here, I run into people every now and again who think nothing of saying something like "That nigger Obama..." and then some stupid shit about whatever. Or just bitching about black people, or immigrants in general. And you know what? They are all middle class, union card carrying members of the Democratic Party, like most everyone in my wife's family demographic. Now, not everyone in my wife's rather large family is like that of course, but everyone in my wife's family IS a democrat.

The idea that one party has some kind of monopoly or even lions share of the "racist vote" is ridiculous. You pulled that straight out of your ass based on idiotic stereotypes, probably about Southerners in general is my guess.

In my personal experience, everyone who is a racist is an urban dweller, and urban dwellers are notorious Democrat voters.     Maybe you have a point.  Or maybe you're just committing a probabilistic fallacy of your own while chiding me on lack of statistical rigor.

[Berkut]

You are right about that - you certainly are not very complicated.

You just keep playing that race card in your overly simple manner. You and Raz.

It's not playing a race card if what you're saying is true.

OK, lets see the stats that show that most racists are Republicans. Lets see the study, the statistical analysis, the reasoning for why we should accept your claim that this is true.

Here is what I know, although it is rather weak evidence, being based on personal experience only. I know personally very few people who I would consider to hold racist views. In fact, prior to moving to upstate New York, I didn't really know any.

But since moving here, I run into people every now and again who think nothing of saying something like "That nigger Obama..." and then some stupid shit about whatever. Or just bitching about black people, or immigrants in general. And you know what? They are all middle class, union card carrying members of the Democratic Party, like most everyone in my wife's family demographic. Now, not everyone in my wife's rather large family is like that of course, but everyone in my wife's family IS a democrat.

The idea that one party has some kind of monopoly or even lions share of the "racist vote" is ridiculous. You pulled that straight out of your ass based on idiotic stereotypes, probably about Southerners in general is my guess.

In my personal experience, everyone who is a racist is an urban dweller, and urban dwellers are notorious Democrat voters.     Maybe you have a point.  Or maybe you're just committing a probabilistic fallacy of your own while chiding me on lack of statistical rigor.

The difference between me and you is I am not trying to draw general conclusions from my particular experiences. My personal experience simply makes me think "Wow, I had no idea there were so many casually racist people around, that is really rather disturbing, especially since these are actually pretty decent people...".

I don't try to shoe-horn those observations into my political or personal agenda though. I make no probabilistic prediction based on my experiences, hence cannot possibly be committing the fallacy. YOU however, are doing exactly that.

[DGuller]

I'm not just using my personal experience.  But, anyway, we can go round and round with this, like always.  I don't have the time for that right now.

[Berkut]

I'm not just using my personal experience.  But, anyway, we can go round and round with this, like always.  I don't have the time for that right now.

I am sure you don't. But that is fine - the bigger point has been made. Just another datum of how DG is so ready to suspend any kind of critical analysis when it comes to slandering Republicans.

[Jacob]

So Berkut, you don't think racism plays a factor in US elections at all?

[DGuller]

I'm not just using my personal experience.  But, anyway, we can go round and round with this, like always.  I don't have the time for that right now.

I am sure you don't. But that is fine - the bigger point has been made. Just another datum of how DG is so ready to suspend any kind of critical analysis when it comes to slandering Republicans.

The point has been made, but as  usual it's a point full of shit.  Trying to insert the last word in when I declare my lack of availability to continue this inane debate won't change that.

[Ideologue]

I'll take a Democrat who says "nigger" over a Republican who never thinks a racist thought but fundamentally misunderstands the socioeconomic structure of this country and votes for policies that are bound to impact black people in a disproportionate way, like higher sales taxes or cutting welfare programs.

I'll also happily take a Democrat who says "nigger" over a Republican who doesn't think the president is even an American, as at least the Democrat is reality-based.

They're all human scum, but some scum occupies higher layers in the mat of algal growth that is America.

[Berkut]

So Berkut, you don't think racism plays a factor in US elections at all?

No, I don't think racism is a political force - meaning that I don't think there is a racist voting block, or that either party does much of anything to court racists (secretly or otherwise) or that traditionally racial issues are meaningful anymore. The good guys won, and racism to the extent that it still exists is not coherent enough to be a political variable that can be manipulated by anyone. There is no racist bloc that goes with one party that they see as catering to them in the manner DG is claiming.

There are a bunch of racists out there almost certainly. Plenty of what I call "casually racist" who would be offended to be referred to as racist, but at the same time when they are comfortable around family have no qualms making nigger jokes, or bitching about spics, or whatever. They aren't running around in sheets at night though, and they certainly don't make political decisions based on their views on race in the manner someone who is pro-life does, or pro-union, or such.

I most certainly think race is a factor in US politics. I would bet if anything it helped Obama get elected though, rather than hurt him. I think the exact same politician who was white with the same message and same experience, never even gets a nomination much less wins. Hell, probably would not even consider running for that matter.

That isn't such a bad thing though, it was about time we elected someone who is not a white, male Christian.