ABB not sane, will not be found guilty.

[Josquius]

:facepalm:
Way to prove some of his rants right Norway.

[The Brain]

I am shocked that Norway fails completely.

[Viking]

It is one thing to use independent court-appointed experts as opposed to duelling adversarial experts.  That makes a certain amount of sense where technical knowledge is involved.

But it is another thing altogether for the Court to abdicate its functions completely, and delegate decisions on the final disposition of criminal matters to a panel of scientific experts.

The court can set aside the court appointed experts, but this is rarely done. This is not a case of the court setting aside it's functions completely but rather getting specialist knowledge on a specific topic. The tradition in norway is to follow these recommendations. The trial will continue and find fact, it will just not sentence, if it chooses to accept the report from the panel of Psychiatrists.

The Psychitatrists are not determinig the outcome of the case but rather determining a single specific fact relevant only for sentencing.

[DGuller]

Is this the end result of social democracy, or are Scandinavians just special that way, in a special sort of way?  It seems like unwillingness to respond with force to people attacking your society is kinda a flaw that is ultimately fatal.

[The Brain]

Is this the end result of social democracy, or are Scandinavians just special that way, in a special sort of way?  It seems like unwillingness to respond with force to people attacking your society is kinda a flaw that is ultimately fatal.

We'll get Sharia law soon enough.

[Viking]

Is this the end result of social democracy, or are Scandinavians just special that way, in a special sort of way?  It seems like unwillingness to respond with force to people attacking your society is kinda a flaw that is ultimately fatal.

That might be the case.. but..

This is how norwegian courts find people innocent due to clinical insanity. The doctors that examined him diagnosed him as suffering from paranoid schitzophrenia and that he was suffering from the same at the time of the massacre.

If anything the political and social response has been to screw this guy over. There have been multiple cases of what might be called prosecutorial misconduct. I'd like to have BB's opinion of this

- the prosecution (which in norway is part of the police) applied for and got a longer period of incarceration (4 weeks rather than 2 weeks) than was permitted under norwegian law
- the prosecution got access illegally to ABBs files from child services and the content of these files were leaked

and in a less serious case

one of his lawyers who works part time for the norwegian tax authority applied for leave to participate in the trial was denied by her employer, this isn't strictlly illegal, but it looks fishy, she was one of the few who wasn't forced by the court to represent him.

The issue here is that there is outrage in society about the prospect of him getting out, ever. There is also great annoyance over the fact that if he is insane they cannot use him to advance the case against anti-multiculturalism and so called islamophobia. If ABB is insane you cannot accuse Fjordman or other "Islamophobes" of inciting indirectly to violence since they cannot be held accountable for what a madman they didn't know existed used them as an excuse to committ murder.

Don't worry, social democracy is standing up for itself, it's just getting very confused in the process.

[Malthus]

Update: There will still be a trial which will not find him innocent or guilty but rather determin the facts.

I've been trying to find some concrete evidence that he will go to prison if he is found sane after a few years; but I can't find any. The case seems to be that everybody expects the government to do something about it while nobody seems to be able to suggest any legal reason for the government to do so.

If he really was insane when he committed the crime, and is subsequently cured, there is no reason to imprison him - at least, under our system.

To my knowledge though, paranoid schizophrenia is not currently a curable condition ... at best, it is controllable.

[Viking]

Update: There will still be a trial which will not find him innocent or guilty but rather determin the facts.

I've been trying to find some concrete evidence that he will go to prison if he is found sane after a few years; but I can't find any. The case seems to be that everybody expects the government to do something about it while nobody seems to be able to suggest any legal reason for the government to do so.

If he really was insane when he committed the crime, and is subsequently cured, there is no reason to imprison him - at least, under our system.

To my knowledge though, paranoid schizophrenia is not currently a curable condition ... at best, it is controllable.

I talked to a friend of mine who works with people who work in the equivalent institution here i Trondheim that ABB will probably serve in Oslo and in addition to explaining to me the difference between Psychopathic (born evil) and Psychotic (evil because of brain chemistry) he explained how the system worked and he is very distressed by this. He is part of the multicultural left, though I've moved him away from the Israel is evil position he held before, and he told me that if his doctor deems it right for his treatment and his doctor doesn't consider him a danger to society he will be released, but, like any other Paranoid Schitzophrenic he will be under involuntary medical supervision the rest of his life. So, in a few years you might see ABB on short furloughs from hospital and in a few more years you might see him realeased into an open psychiatric care home and a few years later free with a duty to report regularly to a doctor.

The attitude in Norway seems to be that this is unjust. ABB needs to be punished. This isn't an attitude that Norwegian society has held before. Criminals are to be reformed and returned to society, not punished. In a sense multicultural-norway is experiencing exactlly the same emotions that ABB seems to have experienced in his youth when a gang of immigrants at his school beat him up regularly and escaped punishment. 

[Malthus]

Update: There will still be a trial which will not find him innocent or guilty but rather determin the facts.

I've been trying to find some concrete evidence that he will go to prison if he is found sane after a few years; but I can't find any. The case seems to be that everybody expects the government to do something about it while nobody seems to be able to suggest any legal reason for the government to do so.

If he really was insane when he committed the crime, and is subsequently cured, there is no reason to imprison him - at least, under our system.

To my knowledge though, paranoid schizophrenia is not currently a curable condition ... at best, it is controllable.

I talked to a friend of mine who works with people who work in the equivalent institution here i Trondheim that ABB will probably serve in Oslo and in addition to explaining to me the difference between Psychopathic (born evil) and Psychotic (evil because of brain chemistry) he explained how the system worked and he is very distressed by this. He is part of the multicultural left, though I've moved him away from the Israel is evil position he held before, and he told me that if his doctor deems it right for his treatment and his doctor doesn't consider him a danger to society he will be released, but, like any other Paranoid Schitzophrenic he will be under involuntary medical supervision the rest of his life. So, in a few years you might see ABB on short furloughs from hospital and in a few more years you might see him realeased into an open psychiatric care home and a few years later free with a duty to report regularly to a doctor.

The attitude in Norway seems to be that this is unjust. ABB needs to be punished. This isn't an attitude that Norwegian society has held before. Criminals are to be reformed and returned to society, not punished. In a sense multicultural-norway is experiencing exactlly the same emotions that ABB seems to have experienced in his youth when a gang of immigrants at his school beat him up regularly and escaped punishment.

I have no idea what Norway will do, but assuming he is actually insane, a reasonable position would be that while his condition may be controllable by drugs, his actions demonstrate that should he have a relapse (very possible as I understand it) the danger to the public is so great that he must be confined for life.

[Barrister]

Update: There will still be a trial which will not find him innocent or guilty but rather determin the facts.

I've been trying to find some concrete evidence that he will go to prison if he is found sane after a few years; but I can't find any. The case seems to be that everybody expects the government to do something about it while nobody seems to be able to suggest any legal reason for the government to do so.

If he really was insane when he committed the crime, and is subsequently cured, there is no reason to imprison him - at least, under our system.

To my knowledge though, paranoid schizophrenia is not currently a curable condition ... at best, it is controllable.

Actually paranoid schizophrenia (or schizophrenia in general) is one of the most treatable conditions.  There is no cure of course, but it is very well controlled when the proper medicatinos are taken.

[Barrister]

Is this the end result of social democracy, or are Scandinavians just special that way, in a special sort of way?  It seems like unwillingness to respond with force to people attacking your society is kinda a flaw that is ultimately fatal.

That might be the case.. but..

This is how norwegian courts find people innocent due to clinical insanity. The doctors that examined him diagnosed him as suffering from paranoid schitzophrenia and that he was suffering from the same at the time of the massacre.

If anything the political and social response has been to screw this guy over. There have been multiple cases of what might be called prosecutorial misconduct. I'd like to have BB's opinion of this

- the prosecution (which in norway is part of the police) applied for and got a longer period of incarceration (4 weeks rather than 2 weeks) than was permitted under norwegian law
- the prosecution got access illegally to ABBs files from child services and the content of these files were leaked

and in a less serious case

one of his lawyers who works part time for the norwegian tax authority applied for leave to participate in the trial was denied by her employer, this isn't strictlly illegal, but it looks fishy, she was one of the few who wasn't forced by the court to represent him.

The issue here is that there is outrage in society about the prospect of him getting out, ever. There is also great annoyance over the fact that if he is insane they cannot use him to advance the case against anti-multiculturalism and so called islamophobia. If ABB is insane you cannot accuse Fjordman or other "Islamophobes" of inciting indirectly to violence since they cannot be held accountable for what a madman they didn't know existed used them as an excuse to committ murder.

Don't worry, social democracy is standing up for itself, it's just getting very confused in the process.

I can't really give any opinion.  You throw out words like "illegally" and "Longer than permitted under Norwegian law", but often times things are not so black and white.  I don't know norwegian law (now do I know norwegian, for that matter) so I can't really offer any comment.

Yes - if someone is truly not guilty because of mental defect, then morally there is no purpose, no point in punishing them for what they have done.  You punish the guilty mind, and someone who is mentally ill lacks that guilty mind.

But still - the decision just seems very wrong to me.  Under our system, it's not enough to merely be mentally ill.  In fact our criminal dockets are full of the mentally ill.  It is you have to have a mental defect to such an extent that you do not realize that what you are doing is wrong.

Nothing I've read about ABB would indicate that level of illness to me.  He would seem to recognize that society considered his murders wrong, and that he knew he would be punished for it.

[The Brain]

Scandinavia isn't like normal places. Here Communist homosexuals who hate normal people are running the show.

[Malthus]

Update: There will still be a trial which will not find him innocent or guilty but rather determin the facts.

I've been trying to find some concrete evidence that he will go to prison if he is found sane after a few years; but I can't find any. The case seems to be that everybody expects the government to do something about it while nobody seems to be able to suggest any legal reason for the government to do so.

If he really was insane when he committed the crime, and is subsequently cured, there is no reason to imprison him - at least, under our system.

To my knowledge though, paranoid schizophrenia is not currently a curable condition ... at best, it is controllable.

Actually paranoid schizophrenia (or schizophrenia in general) is one of the most treatable conditions.  There is no cure of course, but it is very well controlled when the proper medicatinos are taken.

Well, that's more or less what I said.

However, like all schizos, as a generality I understand they do not like taking their meds, and are subject to relapses. If the guy really did massacre because of his illness, can the system take that chance by releasing him where his disease is "controlled" but not "cured"?

[Barrister]

Update: There will still be a trial which will not find him innocent or guilty but rather determin the facts.

I've been trying to find some concrete evidence that he will go to prison if he is found sane after a few years; but I can't find any. The case seems to be that everybody expects the government to do something about it while nobody seems to be able to suggest any legal reason for the government to do so.

If he really was insane when he committed the crime, and is subsequently cured, there is no reason to imprison him - at least, under our system.

To my knowledge though, paranoid schizophrenia is not currently a curable condition ... at best, it is controllable.

Actually paranoid schizophrenia (or schizophrenia in general) is one of the most treatable conditions.  There is no cure of course, but it is very well controlled when the proper medicatinos are taken.

Well, that's more or less what I said.

However, like all schizos, as a generality I understand they do not like taking their meds, and are subject to relapses. If the guy really did massacre because of his illness, can the system take that chance by releasing him where his disease is "controlled" but not "cured"?

It's not a switch.  If someone goes off their meds they gradually deteriorate and if receiving any kind of supervision that can be picked up pretty quickly.

[Malthus]

It's not a switch.  If someone goes off their meds they gradually deteriorate and if receiving any kind of supervision that can be picked up pretty quickly.

Seems still kinda risky. Obviously if they want to go off their meds and are subject to supervision, they will have an incentive to skip town to avoid the supervision - while they are still 'normal'. Given that the disease does not impair intelligence necessarily, particularly when controlled, there is a chance for them to do this successfully. 

If it is the case that the consequences of them going fully insane when the meds wear off are the potential for another mass murder, I can see the case for indefinite detention - thus precluding the scenario.