Europe's Golden age? 1890-1914

[Razgovory]

I've been reading the Proud Tower http://www.amazon.com/Proud-Tower-Portrait-Before-1890-1914/dp/0345405013 lately and like all good books it got me a thinking.  Was this time period, 1890-1914, Europe's Golden age?  Barbara Tuchman says that it explicitly is not.  Reasoning that no golden age would have the seeds of it's own destruction sown with in it and that people looked back across the gulf of the war with rose tinged glasses.  However, Tuchman herself was a product of her time, she was writing in a period of great anxiety and uncertainty and perhaps that colored her thoughts.  I think that perhaps it was Europe's golden age.  Europe was a at the pinnacle of it's power it's culture was bright.  Innovations were coming fast and furious and life for the average person was getting better then it ever had before.  After the war art took a dark and cynical tone (unless it was overwhelmed by the shrill madness of the ideology states).  I don't think Europe ever recovered.  The Euro attitude is still fairly cynical.  They seem to lack the life and energy of their pre-war fore-fathers.  They lack that self-confidence they had before and I often detect a sense of bitterness towards the US which still has that self-confidence and vitality.

[Syt]

After the war art took a dark and cynical tone

Before, too, if you look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Zille

[Tamas]

I agree with Raz

[Valmy]

They lack that self-confidence they had before and I often detect a sense of bitterness towards the US which still has that self-confidence and vitality.

We do?  Well I guess in comparison.

[Bluebook]

...the US which still has that self-confidence and vitality.

Or at least wish they did...

To be honest, US self-confidence and vitality seems to be roughly on par with France right now. High self-confidence for no obvious reason while the claims of vitality is getting more and more desperate and shrill.

[garbon]

They lack that self-confidence they had before and I often detect a sense of bitterness towards the US which still has that self-confidence and vitality.

We do?  Well I guess in comparison.

Indeed, despite the brief bit of "hope" following the transition from Bush to Obama, I think we've been down right depressed as a nation.

[Razgovory]

They lack that self-confidence they had before and I often detect a sense of bitterness towards the US which still has that self-confidence and vitality.

We do?  Well I guess in comparison.

The US does shit.  Like Iraq.  It may not be a good idea, but it goes in and does stuff.  That's self confidence.  If nobody wanted to help the US in Iraq the US still would have attacked.  Compare this to the Euros and the Yugoslav wars.  They couldn't do much unless the US came in.  Hell, look at Libya.  They lacked even the capability to actually operate a no fly zone with out the US.

[Razgovory]

They lack that self-confidence they had before and I often detect a sense of bitterness towards the US which still has that self-confidence and vitality.

We do?  Well I guess in comparison.

Indeed, despite the brief bit of "hope" following the transition from Bush to Obama, I think we've been down right depressed as a nation.

Well we are in a Depression.  Look at the Euros across the pond.  They aren't completely confident of their monetary system will still be there in a few years.

[Valmy]

The US does shit.  Like Iraq.  It may not be a good idea, but it goes in and does stuff.  That's self confidence.  If nobody wanted to help the US in Iraq the US still would have attacked.  Compare this to the Euros and the Yugoslav wars.  They couldn't do much unless the US came in.  Hell, look at Libya.  They lacked even the capability to actually operate a no fly zone with out the US.

Eh they do that to have the resources to buy off their voters.  If we left they would eventually be compelled to fund their militaries again.  I do not know if their military weakness is necessarily the evidence of their lack of vilality but just evidence they do not need to spend money on their militaries.  The evidence of European lack of vitality is the fact they seem to have to wait for a crisis before actually being able to address their problems which is textbook evidence for a society that lacks vitality.

[jimmy olsen]

The US does shit.  Like Iraq.  It may not be a good idea, but it goes in and does stuff.  That's self confidence.  If nobody wanted to help the US in Iraq the US still would have attacked.  Compare this to the Euros and the Yugoslav wars.  They couldn't do much unless the US came in.  Hell, look at Libya.  They lacked even the capability to actually operate a no fly zone with out the US.

Eh they do that to have the resources to buy off their voters.  If we left they would eventually be compelled to fund their militaries again.  I do not know if their military weakness is necessarily the evidence of their lack of vilality but just evidence they do not need to spend money on their militaries.  The evidence of European lack of vitality is the fact they seem to have to wait for a crisis before actually being able to address their problems which is textbook evidence for a society that lacks vitality.

By the definition America has never had vitality. We always wait until a crisis to do something about a problem.

[garbon]

Well we are in a Depression.  Look at the Euros across the pond.  They aren't completely confident of their monetary system will still be there in a few years.

Our "spiritual" depression started under Bush.  I don't have any animus for the man but American pride certainly faltered under Bush 2 term 2.

[Razgovory]

The US does shit.  Like Iraq.  It may not be a good idea, but it goes in and does stuff.  That's self confidence.  If nobody wanted to help the US in Iraq the US still would have attacked.  Compare this to the Euros and the Yugoslav wars.  They couldn't do much unless the US came in.  Hell, look at Libya.  They lacked even the capability to actually operate a no fly zone with out the US.

Eh they do that to have the resources to buy off their voters.  If we left they would eventually be compelled to fund their militaries again.  I do not know if their military weakness is necessarily the evidence of their lack of vilality but just evidence they do not need to spend money on their militaries.  The evidence of European lack of vitality is the fact they seem to have to wait for a crisis before actually being able to address their problems which is textbook evidence for a society that lacks vitality.

I think there is a distinct lack of will.  If we left NATO I don't think they would do much with their militaries (Spell check doesn't like this word).  I think they would prefer to isolate themselves politically, putting faith in the UN and the like and shake their fists at more active countries like an old man complaining about teenagers.  Europe is becoming a retirement communities for nations.

[Valmy]

By the definition America has never had vitality. We always wait until a crisis to do something about a problem.

If that was true you would be right.

But that is total nonsense.

[jimmy olsen]

By the definition America has never had vitality. We always wait until a crisis to do something about a problem.

If that was true you would be right.

But that is total nonsense.

Name one big crisis we headed off at the pass by fixing an underlying problem before it blew up into a big crisis?

[Valmy]

Name one big crisis we headed off at the pass by fixing an underlying problem before it blew up into a big crisis?

Um all of them?  The only one we failed to do so was the slavery thing and that was simply intractable.  Even the compromises made it worse.  But that had to do more with the unsolvable nature of the crisis than a lack of will to solve it.

I mean look at the problems with social unrest because of the industrial revolution.  I thought we did excellently by addressing those issues before any serious threats to the social order really got rolling.

What big crises are you thinking of?