Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[crazy canuck]

Maybe "everybody knows arguments are usually based on false assumptions" but I don't think it is in this case. Certainly, it's been true in my observation everywhere in my varied career.

I can tell you when I worked through high school on sod farm it had nothing to do with who I knew.  It had to do with the fact that I was the biggest strongest fittest kid they could get for the job...

The I didnt get anywhere because I dont know people in high places does wash for me.  Mainly because of my own personal experience.

[Ideologue]

It's not an "entitlement" if you paid for it.  It's not like you can return the Goddamned thing for a refund.

This is exactly the attitude I am talking about.  You didnt pay for the good life.  You paid for another step to help you toward the good life.  You make of your degree what you will.

A constant struggle of all against all: the good life!

And you missed this because I added it, but: do you really, really think that the present generation has a bigger sense of entitlement than previous generations who viewed blacks as cattle and the Third World as a source of oil and rares and too stupid and backwards to ever present a viable economic challenge?  Do you really?

[crazy canuck]

It's not an "entitlement" if you paid for it.  It's not like you can return the Goddamned thing for a refund.

This is exactly the attitude I am talking about.  You didnt pay for the good life.  You paid for another step to help you toward the good life.  You make of your degree what you will.

A constant struggle of all against all: the good life!

And you missed this because I added it, but: do you really, really think that the present generation has a bigger sense of entitlement than previous generations who viewed other races as cattle and the Third World as a source of oil and rares and too stupid and backwards to ever present a viable economic challenge?

That is because you view life as some kind of zero sum game.  That is another point we disagree on.  The reason someone else failed is not because I succeeded.  Indeed because I succeeded many more will have an opportunity.  At a very basic level my associates and secretaries would not be working in these positions if I was still working on a sod farm.

[DGuller]

That is because you view life as some kind of zero sum game.  That is another point we disagree on.  The reason someone else failed is not because I succeeded.  Indeed because I succeeded many more will have an opportunity.  At a very basic level my associates and secretaries would not be working in these positions if I was still working on a sod farm.

They would be working for Ide instead, if you didn't take his place. 

[crazy canuck]

That is because you view life as some kind of zero sum game.  That is another point we disagree on.  The reason someone else failed is not because I succeeded.  Indeed because I succeeded many more will have an opportunity.  At a very basic level my associates and secretaries would not be working in these positions if I was still working on a sod farm.

They would be working for Ide instead, if you didn't take his place. 

[Ideologue]

I don't think that life/the economy is a zero-sum game.  Stop ascribing views to me I don't hold.

The problem isn't that the economy is zero-sum--it obviously can grow and the hard limits to its growth are determined by physical law rather than economic ones--but that it is not growing in a manner consistent with providing jobs and financial stability for a lot of people.  If it's not doing that, it is broken.

[Jacob]

@Jacob, I dont think the whining has anything to do with jobs being harder or not.  It has to do with the sense of entitlement that has not existed before.  As Malthus said, my grandparents really did have it hard.  They didnt complain.  They just worked hard and lived frugally.  My parents had many job opportunities.  My generation had less.  This generation might have less still but they are the first generation to have such a sense of entitlement to the good life simply because they are there.

I think the previous generations agitated too, to be honest. I mean, the On-to-Ottawa Trek in 1935 are not too different in sentiment than the Occupy Wall Street movement. Plenty of people complained in the past.

Also, I think it's inaccurate to characterize the current protests as just an expression of young peoples' entitlement. If you browse through the link I posted upthread there are war veterans, mid-career IT professionals, someone who's prostituting herself be able to afford medicine, someone who's passing on buying medicine to treat their life threatening condition so she can put her kids through school, people who've lost everything due to illness, people who've lost good jobs and been unable to find anything at all and so on.

Yeah, there are also people who say "I want to be an artist" and the like. I agree that that's pretty much just a sense of entitlement (as are others) - it's never been easy to be an artist - but many of these other stories sound more to me like they're out of a Steinbeck novel than Douglas Coupland. And I've been hearing a lot more of that these last few years, and I'm wondering how much there is to it.

Simply saying "young people these days are just feeling more entitled" isn't really enough of an answer, in and of itself.

edit: also another nitpick.  We dont have "socialized medicine".  If we did Doctors would all be employees of the State.  Our system is quite different.  We do have a single payor system but doctors can be very entreprenurial within and outside that system.

Sure, we don't. And neither do any of the countries in Europe. But right now we're discussing (at least I am) the situation in the US, and "socialized medicine" is used to describe our single payor system and the various other hybrids in effect in Europe.

[Malthus]

I'm sorta midway. I do have the impression that the incomming generation "has it harder", at least here in Ontario, and I think this has to do with changes in the way the economy is structured - it just seems that the economy has lost a lot of those lower-middle-class type positions that one could get with a high school education. Its "haves" and "have-nots" now more than it used to be, and the "have-nots" of course outnumber the "haves" ...

I dunno about kids these days being filled with a sense of entitlement - I've disagreed with CC on this issue before - I well remember in the '80s thinking that the baby boomers had the most massive entitlement complex around: they could, and did, simply assume that a university degree got them a job - whereas, as we all know, this wasn't true for us. 

As to whether lawyers have it better or worse specifically - well times are tough all over, but they were equally tough in the mid-90s. I do think clients are more demanding now.

[Ed Anger]

I want to hit somebody with a truncheon and a water cannon.

[Ideologue]

I'll tell you who's entitled, though.  Those veterans.  By law.  I probably shouldn't have decided to pursue a career in the civil service during a tanking economy and in the immediate aftermath of two wars.

Not that a Canadian would know anything about two wars.  Or, to an extent, a tanking economy.  Free.  Rider.

[crazy canuck]

Sure, we don't. And neither do any of the countries in Europe. But right now we're discussing (at least I am) the situation in the US, and "socialized medicine" is used to describe our single payor system and the various other hybrids in effect in Europe.

Just because the Americans mislabel it for the purposes of their own internal debate doesnt mean we should continue the error.

Regarding the rest, I think there is a distinction to be drawn between the misery caused by how scewed up the US health care system is and other causes.  The misery caused by a failure to provide adequate medical coverage despite the fact they spend more per capita then anyone else is, imo, a different issue.

I am focusing on the Ide's of the world that think just because they paid for an education that they should be living the good life and since they are not they should get a refund.

[KRonn]

I'm sorta midway. I do have the impression that the incomming generation "has it harder", at least here in Ontario, and I think this has to do with changes in the way the economy is structured - it just seems that the economy has lost a lot of those lower-middle-class type positions that one could get with a high school education. Its "haves" and "have-nots" now more than it used to be, and the "have-nots" of course outnumber the "haves" ...

I kind of feel the same way. Even if the economy were going fairly well, a lot of those mid level jobs just aren't around, the manufacturing and light industrial jobs that you can do with a high school education and maybe some specific job training. Makes it tough for so many people; not everyone is cut out to go to college, and even then I think a college education can be over hyped. It's very expensive, and those coming out can be saddled with such heavy debt, and they may wind up with a normal paying job, like many college grads, not a big salary job. 

[Ideologue]

Sure, we don't. And neither do any of the countries in Europe. But right now we're discussing (at least I am) the situation in the US, and "socialized medicine" is used to describe our single payor system and the various other hybrids in effect in Europe.

Just because they Americans mislabel it for the purposes of their own internal debate doesnt mean we should continue the error.

Regarding the rest, I think there is a distinction to be drawn between the misery caused by how scewed up the US health care system is and other causes.  The misery caused by a failure to provide adequate medical coverage despite the fact they spend more per capita then anyone else is, imo, a different issue.

I am focusing on the Ide's of the world that think just because they paid for an education that they should be living the good life and since they are not they should get a refund.

You know, I never said I should be living the good life, dude.  Those are words you're putting in my mouth.  I just think I should be able to get a decent job instead of being sandwiched in a state of strident, massive competition for jobs I'm qualified for and a state of overqualification for stopgap work.

I ain't in the market for no $2000 stroller.  I never wanted that kind of life, and still do not.  I don't even want children to put in the stroller.  I only wanted to help people and make enough to live and die in a dignified manner.*  This is clearly because I'm an entitled douchebag.

*Well, and to freeze myself, but this is surprisingly affordable.

[crazy canuck]

You know, I never said I should be living the good life, dude.  Those are words you're putting in my mouth.  I just think I should be able to get a decent job instead of being sandwiched in a state of strident, massive competition for jobs I'm qualified for and a state of overqualification for stopgap work.

So are you rethinking your argument that education be a guarrantee of results in the job market because you paid for it?

[Neil]

I am focusing on the Ide's of the world that think just because they paid for an education that they should be living the good life and since they are not they should get a refund.

Well, I think being conned into overpaying for college is a contributing factor to the angst of the younger generation.